Mussolini vs. Hitler

[South Norwega]

Dunno if that has already been mentioned, but...Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy DID go to war against each other. Nazi Germany won.

Technically, Nazi Germany went to war with the Kingdom of Italy, since Mussolini was deposed.

And the Nazis lost in the end.

[The Parkus Empire]

King Zog


King George II


King Haakon VII


Monarchs Set Win and Match

And Even Poland had a more badass Dictator, Poland!

Where did all these assholes get their fuckloads of medals? I know damn well they weren't out there distinguishing themselves.

[North Suran]

Where did all these assholes get their fuckloads of medals? I know damn well they weren't out there distinguishing themselves.

Monarchs are entitled to many medals from birth. In fairness, some - like the British monarchs - do actually have to do mandatory military service. One thing you have to admire about Hitler; even after he came to power, he still stuck to wearing his corporal uniform and his Iron Cross.

http://www.nndb.com/people/197/000025122/ahitler.jpg

[Great Nepal]

1. Germany easily. Italy had no quality army and was defeated by Greece if it wasn't for German help.
2. Neither.

[Aglrinia]

Does this really need answering?

[Mosasauria]

1. Germany.
2. Mussolini.

[Conserative Morality]

In the old days, we used to call people who pulled out of a war, a loser. And by the amount of "support" the Americans provided their proxy, it is indeed an embarrassing affair. The most important aspect of war is the gumption to win, which apparently Americans were lacking.

The Chinese attack across the Yalu was a fluke that could have been easily defeated. The Chinese were nothing but light infantry, tired from a recent civil war and equipped with old Japanese and Soviet weapons. The incapability to defeat a literal human wave that even the Japanese had little trouble defeating two years ago, is simply a catastrophic military failure. Indeed, it is simply painful that it was only stopped by digging trenches and going completely WWI, in which case the Chinese still made gains with infiltration assault tactics, from the Great War.

Human wave tactics are effective when you're willing to throw away a hundred of your men for one of the enemies, if you have those kinds of numbers.

There were hardly any Military Commanders in the South that I would consider "brilliant", indeed it just seemed the South just had military commanders who read the basic French Zourvre manual and knew how to utilise bayonets, something the North never understood. Grant was the intellectual equivalent of Zhukov, he only knew he had more and hence simply smashed numercial superiority over the enemies head, which I do not take as particularly innovative.

He didn't need to be innovative, he simply needed to use what the North had at their disposal. And Lee

The Americans were not armed with muzzle loaders, they were armed with breechloaders, which is plenty good enough to contend with bolt-action rifles. Especially when you outnumber the enemy fifteen to one. The French took Verdun back with inferior arms and artillery without enjoying such a numerical advantage. And what "Spanish Empire"? A couple islands in the Carribean and the Phillipines is hardly an Empire. Aside from the fact that the Spaniards were never great fighters, losing to the Muslims and had the French save Europe for them.

Strength
Cuban Republic:

30,000 irregulars[4]:19

United States:

300,000 regulars and volunteers[4]:22

Spanish Army:

278,447 regulars and militia[4]:20 (Cuba),
10,005 regulars and militia[4]:20 (Puerto Rico),
51,331 regulars and militia[4]:20 (Philippines

Yeah, not even close. We were closely matched when it came to actual numbers. And Breech Loaders are no match for bolt-action rifles.

[Conserative Morality]

1. Germany easily. Italy had no quality army and was defeated by Greece if it wasn't for German help.
2. Neither.

Neither? How was Mussolini not bright?

[Baltenstein]

Nazis were unimaginative, brutal, and had terrible uniforms

That doesn't apply to Hermann Göring who always went one extra step to look absolutely pimpalicious.





Notice the fancy scepter, very useful for bitch-slapping mouthy subordinates.

[Great Nepal]

1. Germany easily. Italy had no quality army and was defeated by Greece if it wasn't for German help.
2. Neither.

Neither? How was Mussolini not bright?

Invading Greece despite of his shitty army without notifying his ally?

[Conserative Morality]

Invading Greece despite of his shitty army without notifying his ally?

A simple bad judgment call. He wanted his Italian Army to be a standard of military excellence so bad he fooled himself into believing it. Even great minds can be deluded from time to time.

[Person012345]

Mussolini was a schoolteacher

Ergo schools are evil, we know bendy.

Though he didn't say a state schoolteacher.

[Risottia]

1. Who do think would win in a war between Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany?

It would depend on who's attacking whom.
Italy attacks Third Reich - German win as soon as the Italians hit north of the Alps.
Third Reich attacks Italy - Italy bashes happily the Germans in the Alps.

2. Who do you think is smarter, Mussolini or Hitler?

Let's see: one killed himself, the other got executed. One was a raving lunatic the other followed a raving lunatic.
Hm, nice alternatives.

[Great Nepal]

Invading Greece despite of his shitty army without notifying his ally?

A simple bad judgment call. He wanted his Italian Army to be a standard of military excellence so bad he fooled himself into believing it. Even great minds can be deluded from time to time.

Show me a example of good judgement call made by him.

[Baltenstein]

Third Reich attacks Italy - Italy bashes happily the Germans in the Alps.

Except Italy didn't, actually...

[Risottia]

Dunno if that has already been mentioned, but...Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy DID go to war against each other. Nazi Germany won.

?
No. Fascist Italy was loyal to Nazi Germany. As Kingdom of Italy until 1943 and as Italian Social Republic 1943-45.

Italy, on the other hand, went to war against Germany and won. Twice. (WW1 + second halftime of WW2).

[Risottia]

Third Reich attacks Italy - Italy bashes happily the Germans in the Alps.

Except Italy didn't, actually...

Remember WW1?

[Great Nepal]

Third Reich attacks Italy - Italy bashes happily the Germans in the Alps.

We are taking of same Italy which was almost defeated by Greece right?

[Baltenstein]

Except Italy didn't, actually...

Remember WW1?

We're talking about the Third Reich in particular. And to my knowledge, Italy was still nominally fascist when it was occupied by the Nazis. Wasn't it the Grand Council of Fascism that deposed Mussolini?

[Risottia]

Remember WW1?

We're talking about the Third Reich in particular. And to my knowledge, Italy was still nominally fascist when it was occupied by the Nazis. Wasn't it the Grand Council of Fascism that deposed Mussolini?

No. It was the King - who, as Head of State, could dismiss the President of the Council of Ministers (the official title held by Mussolini according to the Statute).

wiki
The conspirators devised an Order of the Day for the next reunion of the Grand Council of Fascism (Gran Consiglio del Fascismo) which contained a proposal to restore direct control of politics to the king. Following the Council, held on July 23, 1943, where the "order of the day" was adopted by majority vote, Mussolini was summoned to meet the King and dismissed as Prime Minister.

Since the GCF passed an Order of the Day restoring the direct control of politics to the King, the prevalence of the Fascist Party over the King - which characterized Fascism - was formally over.

[Risottia]

Third Reich attacks Italy - Italy bashes happily the Germans in the Alps.

We are taking of same Italy which was almost defeated by Greece right?

Exactly.
An offensive, though, is quite different from a defensive - and Italy controlled all the Alpine passes between Germany and Italy, plus it would have had the Alpini fighting on their terrain. While the Germans wouldn't have been able to use Blitzkrieg tactics because of the terrain. Remember also that shortly after WW1 all Alpine passes had been fortified against an eventual attack from North - sometimes using also the former Austrian-Hungarian forts.

[Great Nepal]

We are taking of same Italy which was almost defeated by Greece right?

Exactly.
An offensive, though, is quite different from a defensive - and Italy controlled all the Alpine passes between Germany and Italy, plus it would have had the Alpini fighting on their terrain. While the Germans wouldn't have been able to use Blitzkrieg tactics because of the terrain. Remember also that shortly after WW1 all Alpine passes had been fortified against an eventual attack from North - sometimes using also the former Austrian-Hungarian forts.

Invasion from unoccupied France and Yugoslavia.

[Risottia]

Exactly.
An offensive, though, is quite different from a defensive - and Italy controlled all the Alpine passes between Germany and Italy, plus it would have had the Alpini fighting on their terrain. While the Germans wouldn't have been able to use Blitzkrieg tactics because of the terrain. Remember also that shortly after WW1 all Alpine passes had been fortified against an eventual attack from North - sometimes using also the former Austrian-Hungarian forts.

Invasion from unoccupied France and Yugoslavia.

Ehm. The Italo-French border was already fortified. And the "Yugoslav" border is part of the former border with Austria-Hungary.

An Italian fort in the Maritime Alps (now in French territory).
http://www.via-alpina.org/uploads/cache ... b_w400.jpg

Another one - this one was built by the Kingdom of Sardinia in late XIX century.
http://www.via-alpina.org/uploads/cache ... 0_w400.jpg

Trenches from a fort in the Carso (Karst), eastern border of Italy.
http://isontino.com/fogliano/trincee.jpg

And by the way, good luck climbing cols at 2500 m with a Panzerarmee while entrenched guys are firing mortars and guns from above.

[Baltenstein]

We're talking about the Third Reich in particular. And to my knowledge, Italy was still nominally fascist when it was occupied by the Nazis. Wasn't it the Grand Council of Fascism that deposed Mussolini?

No. It was the King - who, as Head of State, could dismiss the President of the Council of Ministers (the official title held by Mussolini according to the Statute).

wiki
The conspirators devised an Order of the Day for the next reunion of the Grand Council of Fascism (Gran Consiglio del Fascismo) which contained a proposal to restore direct control of politics to the king. Following the Council, held on July 23, 1943, where the "order of the day" was adopted by majority vote, Mussolini was summoned to meet the King and dismissed as Prime Minister.

Since the GCF passed an Order of the Day restoring the direct control of politics to the King, the prevalence of the Fascist Party over the King - which characterized Fascism - was formally over.

Fair enough. But the difference between Fascist government and royal government didn't change the amount of military defense that Italy, as a country, was able to put up against Nazi Germany - which was very little, as the quick occupation showed.

[Risottia]

Fair enough. But the difference between Fascist government and royal government didn't change the amount of military defense that Italy, as a country, was able to put up against Nazi Germany - which was very little, as the quick occupation showed.

True. Still, a good half of Italy didn't even want to fight the Nazi occupation - they saw the Nazi occupation as a good thing, to have Mussolini back again and to counter the Allied invasion. So there wasn't even the idea of putting up a resistance against the occupation - except for some isolated spots. Italy was de-facto without any political and military leadership.