School Damage

[Der Teutoniker]

With all seriousness (And yes, I recognize the sarcasm ), government may screw-up a lot, especially on large issues set to public scrutiny, but it's amazing how well they do with the mundane things.

They certainly do some things quite well. A state-sponsored educational system could be great. It isn't at the moment, and reform is certainly needed - but if it were to be fixed, I'd have nothing against public education. As for the USPS, I like it TBH. It loses money... but again, provides a very valuable service that everyone benefits from. Legitimate criticisms of every government exist, but they aren't all Satan.

[The Corparation]

In response to the OP:
I'm in a public school. Its not the Hell hole you describe.

Children are essentially forced into segregation in the form of cliques out of racial/social tensions

Kids naturally go towards people with similar intrests, whats wrong with that? At my school cliques are none existent

Many students who are rotting inside a classroom would much rather be doing vocational work

We have vocational work. Its called ROP classes

Sometimes the students are more qualified to teach the classes than the teaches.

I have yet to see a classmate with a Bachelors degree, much less a Masters degree which most of my teachers have.

You are taught to respect a central authority figure (teacher).

Well when you get a job you have to respect a central authority figure, your boss. So no problem there.

You are not allowed free speech in a classroom.

This is just BS. I've had my speech quited once. (I was insiting in that Catholicts practice symbolic ritual cannablisim)

Kids are bullied and humiliated

I've only seen this happen a handful of times in 12 years of public schools.

Kids are taught that things like sports actually matter,

No, they're taught that things like that get them into collage. Which is true.

with sports players being allowed to cheat on tests

That's just BS

Kids are put through stress over relentless tests and busy work.

Well that's what happens when you get a job.

Well, as usual the problem is the government. Get the government out of the school system and let the private schools take over, they would actually have to do a good job or they would fail because parents wouldnt send their kids to them. Not to mention lower taxes!

Well this would work extremely well if everyone could afford to go to private schools. Not to mention the fact that most private schools are religous and parents may or may not agree with the religon at the school.

It's not ideal, but it's the best we have until the Vulcans take over.

Do yo,u watch your Star Trek? We ally with Vulcans and then kick Klingon butt (and then Borgs). [/quote]
Yeah but we never got the Romulans, or the Gorn.

[Der Teutoniker]

You're welcome

Maybe you missed the sarcastic gratitude in the post... but yeah, it was sarcastic.

[Odessaden]

Two words. Oy. Vey.

Three incomplete sentences too. Care to explain, though? Your two words are not only inadequate, they are pretty much entirely unexplanatory in any possible sense.

With no offense intended to anyone that believes in Creationism, I just found the previous statement full of bunkum. I do not understand how, even 156 years after Charles Darwin published his theorem, that so many Americans actually believe that it is false. I find it ignorant how someone would wish to go against common belief, that is supported with countless evidence, believing that they, without being a certified teacher, could teach their child better than a certified professional. The point of this message is that trying to 'debunk' evolution is like trying to debunk scientific progress- cruelly a slap in the face for progress.

[The Blaatschapen]

You're welcome

Maybe you missed the sarcastic gratitude in the post... but yeah, it was sarcastic.

I know, but I like to play dumb in such cases and always say that people are welcome when they "thank" me

[Wikipedia and Universe]

So you are forced to government schools, backed by taxpayer dollars. You are obviously taught things in a completely one sided way (especially in history, where the telling of it depends on which side won). Children are essentially forced into segregation in the form of cliques out of racial/social tensions. Many students who are rotting inside a classroom would much rather be doing vocational work. Sometimes the students are more qualified to teach the classes than the teaches. Your freedom of movement is restricted by draconian rules, such as hall passes and bathroom passes. You are taught to respect a central authority figure (teacher). You are not allowed free speech in a classroom. Kids are bullied and humiliated. Kids are taught that things like sports actually matter, with sports players being allowed to cheat on tests. Kids are put through stress over relentless tests and busy work.


So what exactly is the allure of the public education system?

Please note that I personally am not advocating any specific alternative in this OP, which is just questioning the current system without inherently presenting a different system of education. So please refrain from the typical "your an anarchist so you think kids should be stupid and uneducated and get killed" statements.

The "allure" to answer your question, is that most alternatives cost a shit ton of money. Many parents cannot efficiently afford to send their kids to a private school (which, as someone who dis a one-year stint in one, I say is about just as one-sided), and many private schools are denominational. I went into this private school wide-eyed and thinking it would be so much better than public school, but I know personally it wasn't all that (to be fair I made some serious mistakes there that I won't mention here likely ever, but other than that many aspects still sucked). It was small and far more personal and rumors about someone could influence teachers' judgement when dealing with students. The best alternative I say would be an online school, so long as you can find your son/daughter a mode of interaction outside of school. Even then some of those also cost money, but some actually make their student's resident districts pick up the tab, as one here in PA does (I know because I attend it). However that type of education is not for everyone and requires a large degree of self-reliance that is not shared by everyone.

[Der Teutoniker]

With no offense intended to anyone that believes in Creationism, I just found the previous statement full of bunkum. I do not understand how, even 156 years after Charles Darwin published his theorem, that so many Americans actually believe that it is false. I find it ignorant how someone would wish to go against common belief, that is supported with countless evidence, believing that they, without being a certified teacher, could teach their child better than a certified professional. The point of this message is that trying to 'debunk' evolution is like trying to debunk scientific progress- cruelly a slap in the face for progress.

Though I am a Creationist, I don't at all reject Darwin's observations. Evolution isn't about "belief" but observation. Not sure what the rest of the post is about, except the admission that you did not read my post clearly enough. There was white text in there, and that showed up in the quote.

[Der Teutoniker]

I know, but I like to play dumb in such cases and always say that people are welcome when they "thank" me

I usually do the same thing, actually. Or when people (in shock, or disbelief) ask me "What?" I tend to simply repeat what I said louder. It works great in D&D when something hilarious, and bad happens to the PCs.

[Odessaden]

With no offense intended to anyone that believes in Creationism, I just found the previous statement full of bunkum. I do not understand how, even 156 years after Charles Darwin published his theorem, that so many Americans actually believe that it is false. I find it ignorant how someone would wish to go against common belief, that is supported with countless evidence, believing that they, without being a certified teacher, could teach their child better than a certified professional. The point of this message is that trying to 'debunk' evolution is like trying to debunk scientific progress- cruelly a slap in the face for progress.

Though I am a Creationist, I don't at all reject Darwin's observations. Evolution isn't about "belief" but observation. Not sure what the rest of the post is about, except the admission that you did not read my post clearly enough. There was white text in there, and that showed up in the quote.

Sir, what is this so-called 'white text'? Furthermore, you don't say common observations, you say common belief.

[Der Teutoniker]

Sir, what is this so-called 'white text'? Furthermore, you don't say common observations, you say common belief.

White text is exactly what you might think that it is. It is... wait for it, text, that is white.

I believed it explained the sarcasm.

[Brogavia]

Kids are taught that things like sports actually matter,

Someone got picked last for dodgeballdidn't they?

[Conserative Morality]

Someone got picked last for dodgeballdidn't they?

No, I just had my school blow thousands of dollars on a new stadium when we had a perfectly fine old one and budget cuts everywhere else.

[Servantium]

So what exactly is the allure of the public education system?

No idea, it's private brethren is much better.

[The Corparation]

So what exactly is the allure of the public education system?

No idea, it's private brethren is much better.

Its also much more expensive, usualy biased in favor of a religon, and the other students are all rich pricks, which is fine if you are a rich prick

[Brogavia]

No idea, it's private brethren is much better.

Its also much more expensive, usualy biased in favor of a religon, and the other students are all rich pricks, which is fine if you are a rich prick

They also tend to be full of hot rich girls with daddy issues.

[The Norwegian Blue]

Someone got picked last for dodgeballdidn't they?

No, I just had my school blow thousands of dollars on a new stadium when we had a perfectly fine old one and budget cuts everywhere else.

Yeah, that sort of shit is actually annoying. I just got the nth letter from my fancy-schmancy private high school saying, in essence, "Hi, alumnus! Give us money! Give us money right now!" and was somewhat horrified to see that their prioritized list for what they wanted to do with the money went like this:

"First, we need 1.5 million dollars to renovate and build a bubble enclosure over the outdoor tennis courts! After we've done that, we need $250,000 more to renovate some of the classrooms!"

(The tennis courts, it should be noted, were extensively renovated roughly ten years ago, when they might actually halfway have needed it. Unless someone set off a bomb there recently, I cannot imagine that they are not still in very good condition, and even with our imaginary bomb, I see zero reason that the tennis players could possibly need a freaking million-dollar "bubble enclosure.")

[The Norwegian Blue]

No idea, it's private brethren is much better.

Its also much more expensive, usualy biased in favor of a religon, and the other students are all rich pricks, which is fine if you are a rich prick

Hey, now, speaking as a former private school kid, that's not fair. They're much more expensive, usually biased in favor of a religion, and the other students are MOSTLY rich pricks. A few of us were there on scholarships.

(But seriously, there are fantastic private schools - my high school, despite its occasionally bizarre financial priorities, provided a wonderful education. I don't doubt for an instant that it was a much better option for me than public school would have been. It also had a student body of roughly 200 people and offered scholarships to maybe 20 of them, which makes it and schools like it tremendously unrealistic as a viable alternative to public school for most students.)

[Servantium]

No idea, it's private brethren is much better.

Its also much more expensive, usualy biased in favor of a religon, and the other students are all rich pricks, which is fine if you are a rich prick

It would be cheaper and better under a system of LF Capitalism plus it would be less religiously centered. Although, until that happens I do realize that only privatizing education would be detrimental to education as a whole. That's one of the larger problems with capitalism, it only works to maximum potential if you go all the way.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Also, the bit about free speech being banned is entirely untrue, as demonstrated by Tinker vs. Des Moines Independent Community School District

True. But restricting free speech to the point where it 'doesn't interfere with class-time' (My own paraphrase) is pretty arbitrary.

[The Sentenial Empire]

i was in a private school that was even more draconian...

[Calenhardon]

This has already been said, but don't assume that private schools are better than public schools. I went to a private Christian school. While overall better than the local public schools, I also was taught the expected creationist bullshit and that the only reason we were taught anything about evolution was that the evil Marxist state of California mandates it.

Also, Islam is an evil religion whose purpose is world conquest and the extermination of all non-Muslims, and that any muslims that don't say that either aren't true muslims or are lying.

And I was definitely more qualified than my US history teacher, and knew a hell of lot more US history than she did, having been very interested in it for some time. She had a degree in "Organizational Leadership" whatever the hell that is, and her primary reason for being hired was she'd been a halfway decent substitute teacher, a job she only got b/c her husband sold bull semen to local dairy farmers. This is turning into a blogish rant, but for God's sake we skipped studying the years 1820-1880 and watched the TNT series Into the West. I think the Civil War got about days of study. And we never even got to anything after Pearl Harbor, because she thought it would be a great idea to have the class spend a week painting the attack from both sides. And that we needed to listen to some Linkin Park song whose name escapes me that apparently did a good job of explaining that Hitler was only mean because no one really understood him and didn't like his art. /end rant.

so yeah, no guarantees private schools are better. -mumbles about lunacy of skipping Civil War in US history class-

[Trotskylvania]

The problem is that most public school systems are ultimately derivative of the Prussian model, which was designed to regiment people for factory labor or military service.

The Deweyite model of progressive education largely remedies these sorts of faults. Public schools can be a great asset for a free community, but it matters very much the form that those schools follow. For example, Japanese public schools are even more totally regimented than American public school. However, given the highly regimented nature of Japanese society, the school system functions fairly effectively in preparing students to live in that society.

Ours simply does not. A lot of high schools are ever increasingly a form of forced vocational education. And unfortunately, preparing people with the bare minimums to survive in the low-end job market does not necessarily captivate student's attention, nor does it make a good citizen.

[Mongolian Khanate]

The problem is that most public school systems are ultimately derivative of the Prussian model, which was designed to regiment people for factory labor or military service.

The Deweyite model of progressive education largely remedies these sorts of faults. Public schools can be a great asset for a free community, but it matters very much the form that those schools follow. For example, Japanese public schools are even more totally regimented than American public school. However, given the highly regimented nature of Japanese society, the school system functions fairly effectively in preparing students to live in that society.

Ours simply does not. A lot of high schools are ever increasingly a form of forced vocational education. And unfortunately, preparing people with the bare minimums to survive in the low-end job market does not necessarily captivate student's attention, nor does it make a good citizen.

I remember while young being told about the japanese school system and being scared of it. It looks like some heavy stuff

[Aldarminia]

If you are saying some teachers are idiots, sure. The answer to that is to fire them.

ME AS IN ALDARMINIA CUZ MY QUOTES WON'T WORK RIGHT: But alas, we have the union. You can't just fire them. Especially with public schools.

Its also much more expensive, usualy biased in favor of a religon, and the other students are all rich pricks, which is fine if you are a rich prick

Stop watching the one-sided leftist Hollywood movies you leftist elitist [Removed pre-post because I don't fell like getting a warning or ban for flaming even though I am simply trying to make a point rather than flame]. My family is far from rich and I was able to attend a private school. A very good one too. After Katrina, and after we moved, with a year of homeschooling thrown in before, I attended a public school and I was at least two years ahead. I couldn't skip a grade because it would've been unfair to my fellow students.

This goes for everyone on NSG, stop making generalizations about private schools. I almost punched one of my friends because he said private schools were filled with snobby brats who didn't have a social life. I don't know what started this stereotype, but I'm tired of it. You know, my grades have declined since I attended public school despite me knowing the material way before my classmates did. This is because, honestly, public education plain and simple sucks. It gives you grading curves on test(for those of you who don't know what curves are they are enhancements of all students in a class's grade on an assignment). These curves are meant purely so that the failing don't look bad, the teacher look good, and the school gets more funding. It's disgusting and corrupt. I completely disagree with the assumption it lets sports players to cheat. That's BS.

In public school, you're taught to be friends with everybody and not offend or hurt anyone. I would be arrested if I was jumped and I fought back and broke my attacker's nose. I am hushed harshly when I state the obvious truth that people just hate each other. I am taught hate is too severe of a word and that I should use dislike instead(obvious similarities of 1984 newspeak double-meaning words method). I am very nearly sent to the principal's office when I say that the Vietcong all deserved to die, including the woman snipers, in history class. And God forbid if I state my political views to a classroom majority of people who agree with me and a small minority who couldn't care less. I've had to prove at least one of my teachers wrong on a certain topic every year since fifth grade.

Next, I am told I can have my own opinions and that schools shouldn't teach opinions. Then my school pounds me with the Theory of Evolution which is absolutely pointless. How does a chemical cause love? And then explain to me how such a chemical was attained from random reactions of other chemicals and then through these reactions my prehistoric ancestors suddenly went from fur-covered apes with no real emotions to loving, hating, and hairless humans. When I ask my teachers this they simply pause and contiinue on with their one-way discussion which to me seems akin to the ramblings of either a drunken senile bafoon or an imaginative young mind looking for a way to pay for his travels throughout the world(Charles Darwin).

Ugh.

I've had enough for awhile. NSG always irritates me but yet like a Jewish guy with an electronics store, I always seem to be pulled back in(Zohan reference). Feel free to go ahead and rip this post apart with whatever lop-sided views you have. Whether they be right- or left-wing. they're both insane. I'll still continue to believe in my center-right and/or seesawing ideaology.

[Barringtonia]

I remember while young being told about the japanese school system and being scared of it. It looks like some heavy stuff

I was at a TEDx talk last week where one of the speakers was a woman who went to Stanford at 13 and completed Yale Law School at 20, at which point she came to HK to teach creative writing lessons.

Her opinion was that the regulation of children's lives in Asia is counter-productive in that such regulation is fine for the industrial age but not the service age and many governments here are beginning to consider the lack of creativity and its effect on economies.

The more famous talk on creativity in schools is here: http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_s ... ivity.html