Should Nazi Germany be revived?

[The Blaatschapen]

Fascists were only anti-communist for the purposes of realpolitik.

Wouldn't it have been to the mutual advantage of the Nazis and the USSR to ally with each other, though, especially since they were (allegedly) so similar ideologically?

I know they did have a treaty for a few years, but iirc Hitler viewed Stalin as his primary enemy and arguably the main point of WWII for Germany was to eliminate or at least weaken the Soviets. Thing is, though, they must have both known that fighting one another would be incredibly damaging (and it was, for both countries). Why didn't it make more sense at any point for their temporary pact to become a more solid alliance: Germany (and Italy) to mop up Western Europe and North Africa, Russia (and Japan -- although after the Russo-Japanese War they would definitely be little more than allies of convenience if at all) to deal with America? Input from someone who actually knows more about WWII history would be appreciated.

I'm somewhat disturbed that 31% of NSG members voted in favour of a prospective Fourth Reich, even if the majority did so jokingly. Something tells me I shouldn't even bother looking at the "Should the USSR be revived?" thread. It would just depress me further.

The problem lies with Hitlers plan of Lebensraum. He wanted more living space for the German people, and thought that the East was the place to find it. In other words, he wanted territory that was in Soviet hands.

[Emmeria Kingdom]

Wouldn't it have been to the mutual advantage of the Nazis and the USSR to ally with each other, though, especially since they were (allegedly) so similar ideologically?

I know they did have a treaty for a few years, but iirc Hitler viewed Stalin as his primary enemy and arguably the main point of WWII for Germany was to eliminate or at least weaken the Soviets. Thing is, though, they must have both known that fighting one another would be incredibly damaging (and it was, for both countries). Why didn't it make more sense at any point for their temporary pact to become a more solid alliance: Germany (and Italy) to mop up Western Europe and North Africa, Russia (and Japan -- although after the Russo-Japanese War they would definitely be little more than allies of convenience if at all) to deal with America? Input from someone who actually knows more about WWII history would be appreciated.

I'm somewhat disturbed that 31% of NSG members voted in favour of a prospective Fourth Reich, even if the majority did so jokingly. Something tells me I shouldn't even bother looking at the "Should the USSR be revived?" thread. It would just depress me further.

The pact didnt last for a few years it lasted for few months. Think when Germans and Russians invade Poland. After Poland fell. A pact states that both militaries will not attack each other. This started the Great Winter War. The country of Finland was fighting with mother russia throughout the winter of 1940. Then Germans attack Russia which made Russians disband all military from Finland to Poland but fell back to Stalingrad and near Moscow

[Mindhar]

They were similar, but the rhetoric behind the realpolitik was far more important to them. It didn't matter if they were exactly the same, Germans and Russians had vendettas with one another. Besides that, the Russians were sitting on a goldmine of resources that idiots like Hitler couldn't let go.

Hitler himself may not have been the sharpest bulb in the bucket but I doubt even he honestly believed that Slavs were some form of subhuman life. That was just more rhetoric.

Moreover, other fascist governments with rather strong similarities to Nazism -- starting with Mussolini and going on well into the 20th century -- also tended to crack down on communists; arguably an http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnemyCivilWar from our point of view, but they did seem to view communism as the greater evil and were sometimes willing to join forces with free-market capitalists in order to stamp it out. Just as communists were willing to ally with capitalists against fascists. Communists and fascists allying together seems very rare considering the similarities involved -- I can't think offhand of an example although it's obviously never entirely clear what one ideology a government follows anyway.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Truly your are a beneficent genius, for you vast store of knowledge is obviously so superior to my tiny brain that you have restricted yourself to one world rebuttals to save my insignificant mind from being blown.

But please I implore you, enlighten me great oracle. I will endure the consequences.

Your... 'wity' comeback is really cancelled out by your poor spelling. Honestly mate. I and everyone else have explained it again and again. If you actually want to learn, instead of spitting out bullshit, by all means buy a book on the subject and read it. May I suggest Das Kapital for a basic introduction to Socialism, and The Doctrine of Fascism for an introduction to Fascism.

[The Nuclear Fist]

They were similar, but the rhetoric behind the realpolitik was far more important to them. It didn't matter if they were exactly the same, Germans and Russians had vendettas with one another. Besides that, the Russians were sitting on a goldmine of resources that idiots like Hitler couldn't let go.

Noy you're just being geographically incorrect. The entire Soviet Union was not Russia. Stalin himself was a Georgian.

[Mindhar]

The problem lies with Hitlers plan of Lebensraum. He wanted more living space for the German people, and thought that the East was the place to find it. In other words, he wanted territory that was in Soviet hands.

Slightly odd, considering that Germany had a greater "historically justifiable" (for rhetorical purposes) claim to the former territories of the Holy Roman Empire, but understandable. One wonders if he'd ever thought of negotiation, though. If Germany and the USSR had been allied and won WWII there likely would have been plenty of territory to be divided up.

(For any historians reading this and facepalming: Yes, I'm fully aware that more or less all I know about WWII I got from history classes, Wikipedia and one or two books. Do feel free to poke holes in my argument.)

[Zukariaa]

They were similar, but the rhetoric behind the realpolitik was far more important to them. It didn't matter if they were exactly the same, Germans and Russians had vendettas with one another. Besides that, the Russians were sitting on a goldmine of resources that idiots like Hitler couldn't let go.

Noy you're just being geographically incorrect. The entire Soviet Union was not Russia. Stalin himself was a Georgian.

What does that have to do with anything? You have to go through the unimportant parts of the Soviet Union to get to Russia, anyways. The Russian Empire was actually larger than the Soviet Union, remember.

[Iridis]

Truly your are a beneficent genius, for you vast store of knowledge is obviously so superior to my tiny brain that you have restricted yourself to one world rebuttals to save my insignificant mind from being blown.

But please I implore you, enlighten me great oracle. I will endure the consequences.

Your... 'wity' comeback is really cancelled out by your poor spelling. Honestly mate. I and everyone else have explained it again and again. If you actually want to learn, instead of spitting out bullshit, by all means buy a book on the subject and read it. May I suggest Das Kapital for a basic introduction to Socialism, and The Doctrine of Fascism for an introduction to Fascism.

The fact I made no spelling mistakes is obvious revisonism , eh comrade?

[The Nuclear Fist]

What does that have to do with anything? You have to go through the unimportant parts of the Soviet Union to get to Russia, anyways. The Russian Empire was actually larger than the Soviet Union, remember.

Yes, I am quite aware. I actually know my geography.

Incorrect. Although the Russian SFSR was the command centre of the USSR, the other Soviet republic were incredily important to the wellfare of the entire nation. And as a person who was born in Georgia, I take offense to that statement.

[Iridis]

Truly your are a beneficent genius, for you vast store of knowledge is obviously so superior to my tiny brain that you have restricted yourself to one world rebuttals to save my insignificant mind from being blown.

But please I implore you, enlighten me great oracle. I will endure the consequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Not necessarily state ownership, that is just one part of the theories on how to go about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

'Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.'

'Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.'

Obviously wikipedia proves me wrong here.

[Sebytania]

The pact didnt last for a few years it lasted for few months. Think when Germans and Russians invade Poland. After Poland fell. A pact states that both militaries will not attack each other. This started the Great Winter War. The country of Finland was fighting with mother russia throughout the winter of 1940. Then Germans attack Russia which made Russians disband all military from Finland to Poland but fell back to Stalingrad and near Moscow

Operation Barbarossa, which officially ended the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, didn't begin until June 1941. And the said pact was signed in August 1939. That makes the pact last for nearly two years. That's hardly "few months".

[The Nuclear Fist]

'Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.'

'Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.'

Obviously wikipedia proves me wrong here.

Correct. It does.

[Zukariaa]

What does that have to do with anything? You have to go through the unimportant parts of the Soviet Union to get to Russia, anyways. The Russian Empire was actually larger than the Soviet Union, remember.

Yes, I am quite aware. I actually know my geography.

Incorrect. Although the Russian SFSR was the command centre of the USSR, the other Soviet republic were incredily important to the wellfare of the entire nation. And as a person who was born in Georgia, I take offense to that statement.

Deal with it, the satellite SSRs were completely unimportant. They just fed the Russian high command manpower.

[Iridis]

'Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy.'

'Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.'

Obviously wikipedia proves me wrong here.

Correct. It does.

The Americans will never reach Baghdad, they are dying in the streets.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Deal with it, the satellite SSRs were completely unimportant. They just fed the Russian high command manpower.

Also incorrect. The various SSRs (excluding Ukraine) are sparsely populated. They did however, provide much needed revenue to the USSR as a whole. Learn your history.

[The Blaatschapen]

The problem lies with Hitlers plan of Lebensraum. He wanted more living space for the German people, and thought that the East was the place to find it. In other words, he wanted territory that was in Soviet hands.

Slightly odd, considering that Germany had a greater "historically justifiable" (for rhetorical purposes) claim to the former territories of the Holy Roman Empire, but understandable. One wonders if he'd ever thought of negotiation, though. If Germany and the USSR had been allied and won WWII there likely would have been plenty of territory to be divided up.

(For any historians reading this and facepalming: Yes, I'm fully aware that more or less all I know about WWII I got from history classes, Wikipedia and one or two books. Do feel free to poke holes in my argument.)

They had a division, it was established in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. A new negotitation to get more land would mean that Hitler would have to give up some territory that the USSR would be interested in.

[Natapoc]

I was genuinely surprised by the popularity of a restored Soviet Union, with apparently 27% of Generalites being in favour of a totalitarian empire that practised state slavery and mass murder. Purely for personal interest, I would like to know if similar warm feelings are held for the other most well-known country of that description.

EDIT: Actually, 36% of Generalites who knew what the USSR was and returned a substantive answer to the poll were in favour of restoring the USSR. This makes the USSR only 10ppt less popular among NSGers than Obama is among Americans.

EDIT2: Some of you seem to think I support this idea. It is purely an opinion poll for my interest; personally I am supporter of the Pan-National Revolutionary Anti-Oligarch Anarcho-Liberal Vanguard Party which opposes both national and international Socialism.

Update: Of substantive voters (ie. people who respond yes or no), there is currently 30% support for restoration of the USSR, and 18% support for restoration of Nazi Germany. While the USSR is clearly the more popular of the two, there still seems to exist much stronger support among Generalites for a fourth Reich than I would suppose there is among the general public.

Update2: Support for a Fourth Reich is now 34%, vs 30% support for a revived Soviet Union. Presuming that these are not the same people(!), there is now an upper limit of 36% of NSGers who do not support at least one form of slave-state.

Seems roughly the same number of people support USSR as support a nazi government. Perhaps these are the glen beck listeners who believe that one can be a fascist, a communist, a nazi, an anarchist, and a stalinist all at the same time.

[Zukariaa]

Deal with it, the satellite SSRs were completely unimportant. They just fed the Russian high command manpower.

Also incorrect. The various SSRs (excluding Ukraine) are sparsely populated. They did however, provide much needed revenue to the USSR as a whole. Learn your history.

Stop telling me I don't know my geography or that I need to learn my history. Seriously, you pretentious fuck.

Anyways, again they only provided things to the Russian center. Unimportant in the long run. They were in the way of the vendetta between the Germans and Russians in any case. Just because you're Georgian doesn't make Georgia important.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Stop telling me I don't know my geography or that I need to learn my history. Seriously, you pretentious fuck.

Anyways, again they only provided things to the Russian center. Unimportant in the long run. They were in the way of the vendetta between the Germans and Russians in any case. Just because you're Georgian doesn't make Georgia important.

Pretty sure thats bordering on flaming, but whatever.

The Russian centre was undoubtedly the most important, yes. However, the various other SSRs played a key role in keeping the whole thing afloat. It was only when the various SSRs rebelled did the USSR collapse.

[Zukariaa]

Stop telling me I don't know my geography or that I need to learn my history. Seriously, you pretentious fuck.

Anyways, again they only provided things to the Russian center. Unimportant in the long run. They were in the way of the vendetta between the Germans and Russians in any case. Just because you're Georgian doesn't make Georgia important.

Pretty sure thats bordering on flaming, but whatever.

The Russian centre was undoubtedly the most important, yes. However, the various other SSRs played a key role in keeping the whole thing afloat. It was only when the various SSRs rebelled did the USSR collapse.

This is going further and further off the original topic to the point that I don't even know what its about, but the fact that a country is just a cushion for the bigger one only makes it less important. Russia can stand on its own whereas every one of the former SSRs are totally irrelevant.

[Mindhar]

Slightly odd, considering that Germany had a greater "historically justifiable" (for rhetorical purposes) claim to the former territories of the Holy Roman Empire, but understandable. One wonders if he'd ever thought of negotiation, though. If Germany and the USSR had been allied and won WWII there likely would have been plenty of territory to be divided up.

(For any historians reading this and facepalming: Yes, I'm fully aware that more or less all I know about WWII I got from history classes, Wikipedia and one or two books. Do feel free to poke holes in my argument.)

They had a division, it was established in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. A new negotitation to get more land would mean that Hitler would have to give up some territory that the USSR would be interested in.

The USSR might have had a superior bargaining position simply by virtue of having most of its infrastructure and military still intact, but its infrastructure and military was greatly inferior already, and not helped by Stalin's habit of promoting commanders based on their political credentials and executing the competent ones for being insufficiently communist. Arguably, by 1941 their negotiating positions might have been about equal (Germany with decreased power but stronger political credentials, with a string of victories in the West) and a renegotiation of the M-R pact could have proved mutually profitable. Assuming there was territory in Western Europe the Soviets were interested in, of course.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Also incorrect. The various SSRs (excluding Ukraine) are sparsely populated. They did however, provide much needed revenue to the USSR as a whole. Learn your history.

Stop telling me I don't know my geography or that I need to learn my history. Seriously, you pretentious fuck.

Anyways, again they only provided things to the Russian center. Unimportant in the long run. They were in the way of the vendetta between the Germans and Russians in any case. Just because you're Georgian doesn't make Georgia important.

Knock off the flaming.

[The Nuclear Fist]

This is going further and further off the original topic to the point that I don't even know what its about, but the fact that a country is just a cushion for the bigger one only makes it less important. Russia can stand on its own whereas every one of the former SSRs are totally irrelevant.

Correct. The modern ex-Soviet republic stand on their own feet. The USSR could not. Without the other SSRs, the Russian SFSR crumbled. And thus with all the SSRs leaving, the USSR crumbled.

[Zukariaa]

Stop telling me I don't know my geography or that I need to learn my history. Seriously, you pretentious fuck.

Anyways, again they only provided things to the Russian center. Unimportant in the long run. They were in the way of the vendetta between the Germans and Russians in any case. Just because you're Georgian doesn't make Georgia important.

Knock off the flaming.

Why? He keeps implying I don't know things to the point that it was basically trolling. I told him to stop. we're done with that and moved on. How about leaving it alone instead of jumping in and making anyone who has anything to say bite their fucking tongue?

[Hornopolis]

It totally should. I mean, so what if they killed six million jews and oppressed all of Europe with their fanatical beliefs? -_-