Capitalism or Socialism: Which is better?

[New Heliopolis]

aren't emotions a product of achieving a value or losing something or a reaction to something that happens to you? and if you enojoy feeling this emotion you will strive toward doing whatever will allow you to experience that emotion again, if not you will steer clear of doing whatever gives you a bad emotion.

But you have to be rational in order to not be hedonistic, or self-destructive. You experience pleasure eating chocolate but too much is bad for you, and you don't want to be ill and feel udner the weather. Equally for some people cutting themselves feels good yet they are being destructive to their bodies so...

And how do you determine preference?

Emotions.

Your statement still does not prove morals. Your just verifying what I said.

So, according to Staenwald, morals would be acting in accordance with emotions and preferences. I disagree with him, definition-wise, but there is proof emotions and preferences exist, so...yeah. Anyhow, my own argument soon.

[Staenwald]

aren't emotions a product of achieving a value or losing something or a reaction to something that happens to you? and if you enojoy feeling this emotion you will strive toward doing whatever will allow you to experience that emotion again, if not you will steer clear of doing whatever gives you a bad emotion.

But you have to be rational in order to not be hedonistic, or self-destructive. You experience pleasure eating chocolate but too much is bad for you, and you don't want to be ill and feel udner the weather. Equally for some people cutting themselves feels good yet they are being destructive to their bodies so...

And how do you determine preference?

Emotions.

Your statement still does not prove morals. Your just verifying what I said.

I wasnt really trying to prove it, but I was just saying you can't live your life entirely based based on feeling- you have to be rational, plus you need to think in order to improve your life and maintain it- you can't do things on 'feeling'.

Objectivist ethics are to live to pursue value and happiness for yourself, and also to be rational whilst doing it. And you can't do this at the expense of anyone else- individual rights.

Pursuing value is subjective- and because objectivists are individualists they acknowledge that humans are ends in themselves, and can pursue whichever values they want, as long as they dont stop any one else from pursuing theirs. They also think that you should act according to facts and reason, not just emotion, which although a vital driving force, won't aid you to your goal- it won't give you knowledge, or the means to complete it- other than giving you inspiriation.

Objectivists have just tried to define after observation, what we need to do in order to live, explained why and given a code.

Can i ask you why we believe in individual rights and why you think it's correct, even though we have no inherent compulsion to acknowledge them and we could just disregard if we want. Morals are nothing other than a human concept which we have created in order to live our own lives, and to do it harmoniously (subective term depending on the morality).

[Staenwald]

Emotions.

Your statement still does not prove morals. Your just verifying what I said.

So, according to Staenwald, morals would be acting in accordance with emotions and preferences. I disagree with him, definition-wise, but there is proof emotions and preferences exist, so...yeah. Anyhow, my own argument soon.

I've just explained more. the concept of what is moral is so wide ranging. Some moral codes deny you pleasure and good emotion and others promote only bad emotion. some promote the happiness of others at the expense of yourself.

My morality is to act in accordance with what makes me happy, whilst acknowledging certains facts of reality, and making sure I pursue my happiness without preventing anyone else from doing the same through physical force.

[Genivar]

Because the other shops can't compete that low and still make a profit. With how widespread Wal-mart is they can have prices low but still turn a huge profit because they have money coming from everywhere.
Anyway its 4 am where I'm at. Goodnight.

I don't object to cooperatives, but they should only appear through voluntary cooperation from individuals with shared interests, not created by any means of force, or government coersion.

But Unions can easily be broken when force is applied by the management. There are no government attempts to aid unions, if anything history in the U.S has show that the government is more then willing to call in the Guard to force the strikers back to work.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I don't object to cooperatives, but they should only appear through voluntary cooperation from individuals with shared interests, not created by any means of force, or government coersion.

But Unions can easily be broken when force is applied by the management. There are no government attempts to aid unions, if anything history in the U.S has show that the government is more then willing to call in the Guard to force the strikers back to work.

Companies can also be broken when the union that formed of their employees strikes, etc. It's a balancing act between both parties, but if a company is say, hiring Pinkertons to break up the unions strike, (hopefully) the gov't would prosecute them. In the same way union-members who beat scabs would/should be. What's your point?

[Mosasauria]

Really it depends on who's running it.

[Mercator Terra]

Emotions.

Your statement still does not prove morals. Your just verifying what I said.

I wasnt really trying to prove it, but I was just saying you can't live your life entirely based based on feeling- you have to be rational, plus you need to think in order to improve your life and maintain it- you can't do things on 'feeling'.

Objectivist ethics are to live to pursue value and happiness for yourself, and also to be rational whilst doing it. And you can't do this at the expense of anyone else- individual rights.

Pursuing value is subjective- and because objectivists are individualists they acknowledge that humans are ends in themselves, and can pursue whichever values they want, as long as they dont stop any one else from pursuing theirs. They also think that you should act according to facts and reason, not just emotion, which although a vital driving force, won't aid you to your goal- it won't give you knowledge, or the means to complete it- other than giving you inspiriation.

Objectivists have just tried to define after observation, what we need to do in order to live, explained why and given a code.

Can i ask you why we believe in individual rights and why you think it's correct, even though we have no inherent compulsion to acknowledge them and we could just disregard if we want. Morals are nothing other than a human concept which we have created in order to live our own lives, and to do it harmoniously (subective term depending on the morality).

I would say reason is a emotion sort of. Either way I dont abide by ethics even if they were real.

[New Hampshyre]

Wait, capitalism has a better economy? So THAT'S why we're in an economic crisis.
A capitalist economy may have rapid growth, but its unstable.
A regulated market is FAR more stable.

Really. Then why did we have this crisis when the US economy is more regulated now then it has been in decades? President Clinton's administration created an average of 400 new financial regulations a year, Bush made 500 new ones a year on average. Bush also greatly increased the number of financial regulators and their funding.

Many types of regulation and other types of govt intervention change the flow of market resources because they send false economic signals. These artificially inefficient flows of resources are what creates most bubbles which inevitably pop as it becomes more and more obvious that something irrational is going on (Such as ever-increasing home prices that grow faster than inflation and population growth everywhere at once).

And yes, knowledgeable and reasonable socialists admit that free-market capitalism dos produce a stronger and more resilient economy, they just don't think that is worth the income disparities and what-not.

[New Hampshyre]

So all those Corporate representatives who praise our *Free market System* are wrong?

Strictly speaking yes. But, they are probably saying that our economy is MORE capitalist than most of the rest of the world, which is probably true. We can easily compare free markets and their effects by compiling data from all the various nations in the world. Free markets have more economic growth, wealthier poor populations, less corruption, less environmental degradation, more civil and political freedoms, and longer life expectancies than less free economies.

You can check that out in the annual report at freetheworld.com.

How exactly is the U.S NOT capitalist? or corporatist I guess.

Farm subsidies, regulations that have nothing to do with protecting life liberty and property, welfare, social security, public schools, public housing, govt funded research, obamacare, higher capital gains tax rate than Europe, occupational licensing, the lack of property right protection against polluters, govt mandated monopolies for utilities, public roads, public trash pick-up, the Fed & FDIC, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, corporate subsidies and bail-outs, and so many more.

And it IS corporatist.

[New Hampshyre]

Maybe because thats the only place they can afford to shop.
Everyone tries to tighten their belts to survive in this unstable economy nowadays so they shop where its cheapest.

And so you want to blame them for not forcing you to tighten your belt either further? Brilliant.

[New Hampshyre]

I like how you have Mill in your quotes and reference Ayn Rand.

Am I not allowed to appreciate more than one philosopher at a time? lol? I think if they had ever met, they would have agreed on a whole lot and it would have been one awesome conversation to witness.

[New Hampshyre]

Yes, I did. There isn't much to say about her other than she uses her beliefs as a crutch for bad writing.

Good argument.

[New Hampshyre]

But Unions can easily be broken when force is applied by the management.

Management isn't allowed to initiate force or fraud against the workers.

There are no government attempts to aid unions, if anything history in the U.S has show that the government is more then willing to call in the Guard to force the strikers back to work.

The govt obviously should be forcing people to get back to work, but it shouldn't be helping the union either. No more than it should help a boycott.

[Genivar]

But while they prate of economic laws, men and women are starving. We must lay hold of the fact that economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

If I went to work in a factory the first thing I'd do is join a union.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Not only our future economic soundness but the very soundness of our democratic institutions depends on the determination of our government to give employment to idle men.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

True individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Those newspapers of the nation which most loudly cried dictatorship against me would have been the first to justify the beginnings of dictatorship by somebody else.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

My favorite U.S president.

[Mercator Terra]

FDR...
EDIT: His wife was almost as stupid as him

[Genivar]

:rofl:
FDR... Bush, Reagan, and Jr Bush.
EDIT: His wife was almost as stupid as him

[Mercator Terra]

:rofl:
FDR... Bush, Reagan, and Jr Bush.
EDIT: His wife was almost as stupid as him

FDR was worse then Dubyah and Daddy Bush.

[Genivar]

FDR was worse then Dubyah and Daddy Bush.

Yes because FDR broke our economy and ripped up the constitution to.....wait.

[Mercator Terra]

FDR was worse then Dubyah and Daddy Bush.

Yes because FDR broke our economy and ripped up the constitution to.....wait.

The New Deal did far more damage then Dubyah ever did.

[Genivar]

Yes because FDR broke our economy and ripped up the constitution to.....wait.

The New Deal did far more damagegood then Dubyah ever did.

[Mercator Terra]

The New Deal did far more damagegood then Dubyah ever did.

lol name any aspect of the New Deal and I can show you why its so shitty.

[Genivar]

lol name any aspect of the New Deal and I can show you why its so shitty.

Uh huh.The CCC that put my Great Grand-Pa back to work?

[Mercator Terra]

lol name any aspect of the New Deal and I can show you why its so shitty.

Uh huh.The CCC that put my Great Grand-Pa back to work?

Didn't even work. Mass transportation of people just to dig ditches really helps the economy. So what does he do he sends us into WW2. All it did was take possible workers away from jobs and sent them to government camps.

[Genivar]

Uh huh.The CCC that put my Great Grand-Pa back to work?

Didn't even work. Mass transportation of people just to dig ditches really helps the economy. So what does he do he sends us into WW2. All it did was take possible workers away from jobs and sent them to government camps.

I think your ignoring the fact that there weren't that many private jobs to claim. The workers were being paid for the public projects.

[Loftgren]

All it did was take possible workers away from jobs and sent them to government camps.

There weren't exactly any jobs to take the workers away from. Also, your use of the phrase "government camps" makes it sound like FDR was shipping workers off to the gulag or something.

Don't get me wrong, the New Deal wasn't all rainbows and sunshine, but the CCC was a useful program.