Capitalism or Socialism: Which is better?

[Sibirsky]

Ignoring entirely that it is idiotic regulations that caused the crisis, that regulations cause the boom and bust cycle, that regulations have perpetuated poverty...

Keep on printing the dough!

Yes! Because that's all the economy needs. That's why counterfeiting should be legal.

[Mercator Terra]

Not to mention it can lead to so much other things (unemployed, lower living quality, etc)

Ask these stablists what growth rate they'd be happy with. They'd tell you that 2% is great. Except that in the US, as 2% growth rate will not bring down unemployment at any meaningful rate.

Exactly...
Also you'd think unions would learn that they're just screwing themselves over.

[Staenwald]

explain? sorry i'm being stupid...hehe

Why ought/should anyone do anything? (Being a moral state claims that one ought/should do something)

I know they have no value- but they are relevant to you remaining...idk whats the word. I don't like to be indebtted to people, I don't like to steal things from people - especially through welfare. If we didnt have morals then how can you make a moral case for capitalism when the opposition to capitalism mostly argue from a moral basis. What are individual rights other than morals? We arent bound by reality to live according to individual rights, nor do we get rewarded for it in some afterlife- it's just about being right and courteous.

I feel much better following them as a guide. As a question to you guys- what do you think i should do about university, as we get reduced fees here through government, but i wouldnt feel right going to UNI if i know someone else other than me or my family was being forced to pay for it. My only qualm is that my parents have to pay the taxes for it anyway- so..what should I do? I'm thinking about taking a year or two out of education and working abroad, and saving up and then returning maybe to go to uni in the USA, or to the UK as a foreign studetn because I want to pay the full price..am I being stupid?

[Mercator Terra]

Keep on printing the dough!

Yes! Because that's all the economy needs. That's why counterfeiting should be legal.

Thats why using precious metals as money should be legal.

[Staenwald]

I'm reading We the Living by Rand at the moment. It may be exaggerated, it's most likely to be by some degree, but the conditions in soviet russia from her description was awful, and in fact the soviets had become no better than their czarist predecessor, and just destroyed the capitalist system and then reintroduced it but included force in the works too.

Czarist Russia was much better than the Soviet Union in comparison to the European powers.

well they became their own enemies- their evil vision of capitalism which they hated. The thing they saw capitalism as- not what it actually is.

[Staenwald]

Yes! Because that's all the economy needs. That's why counterfeiting should be legal.

Thats why using precious metals as money should be legal.

what happens if like a new gold mine is found when they use the gold standard? does inflation occur like in the current system?

[Mercator Terra]

Why ought/should anyone do anything? (Being a moral state claims that one ought/should do something)

I know they have no value- but they are relevant to you remaining...idk whats the word. I don't like to be indebtted to people, I don't like to steal things from people - especially through welfare. If we didnt have morals then how can you make a moral case for capitalism when the opposition to capitalism mostly argue from a moral basis. What are individual rights other than morals? We arent bound by reality to live according to individual rights, nor do we get rewarded for it in some afterlife- it's just about being right and courteous.

I feel much better following them as a guide. As a question to you guys- what do you think i should do about university, as we get reduced fees here through government, but i wouldnt feel right going to UNI if i know someone else other than me or my family was being forced to pay for it. My only qualm is that my parents have to pay the taxes for it anyway- so..what should I do? I'm thinking about taking a year or two out of education and working abroad, and saving up and then returning maybe to go to uni in the USA, or to the UK as a foreign studetn because I want to pay the full price..am I being stupid?

I dont make a moral case for capitalism. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't have to do with morals. You can say I disagree with x because of y.

[Mercator Terra]

Thats why using precious metals as money should be legal.

what happens if like a new gold mine is found when they use the gold standard? does inflation occur like in the current system?

Gold is still valued by people it would have to be a lot of gold. In that case you can switch to another precious metal. Non the less Im talk it would have to be A LOT.

[Staenwald]

I know they have no value- but they are relevant to you remaining...idk whats the word. I don't like to be indebtted to people, I don't like to steal things from people - especially through welfare. If we didnt have morals then how can you make a moral case for capitalism when the opposition to capitalism mostly argue from a moral basis. What are individual rights other than morals? We arent bound by reality to live according to individual rights, nor do we get rewarded for it in some afterlife- it's just about being right and courteous.

I feel much better following them as a guide. As a question to you guys- what do you think i should do about university, as we get reduced fees here through government, but i wouldnt feel right going to UNI if i know someone else other than me or my family was being forced to pay for it. My only qualm is that my parents have to pay the taxes for it anyway- so..what should I do? I'm thinking about taking a year or two out of education and working abroad, and saving up and then returning maybe to go to uni in the USA, or to the UK as a foreign studetn because I want to pay the full price..am I being stupid?

I dont make a moral case for capitalism. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't have to do with morals. You can say I disagree with x because of y.

You should have one i think..sibirsky what do you think?
Mercator- watch this video?
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... capitalism
thats a moral defense of capitalism.

[Sibirsky]

Ask these stablists what growth rate they'd be happy with. They'd tell you that 2% is great. Except that in the US, as 2% growth rate will not bring down unemployment at any meaningful rate.

Exactly...
Also you'd think unions would learn that they're just screwing themselves over.

They don't care. They prefer short term gains over long term success.

[Mercator Terra]

I dont make a moral case for capitalism. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't have to do with morals. You can say I disagree with x because of y.

You should have one i think..sibirsky what do you think?
Mercator- watch this video?
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... capitalism
thats a moral defense of capitalism.

I got distracted because of all the should's and ought's



Moral nihilism is very simple like I stated before. Non the less all moral arguments mean nothing to me.

[Staenwald]

Exactly...
Also you'd think unions would learn that they're just screwing themselves over.

They don't care. They prefer short term gains over long term success.

they are very selfish- they should be toiling tirelessly towards the end goal for the sake of all the proletariat -living and yet to be !

[Sibirsky]

Why ought/should anyone do anything? (Being a moral state claims that one ought/should do something)

I know they have no value- but they are relevant to you remaining...idk whats the word. I don't like to be indebtted to people, I don't like to steal things from people - especially through welfare. If we didnt have morals then how can you make a moral case for capitalism when the opposition to capitalism mostly argue from a moral basis. What are individual rights other than morals? We arent bound by reality to live according to individual rights, nor do we get rewarded for it in some afterlife- it's just about being right and courteous.

I feel much better following them as a guide. As a question to you guys- what do you think i should do about university, as we get reduced fees here through government, but i wouldnt feel right going to UNI if i know someone else other than me or my family was being forced to pay for it. My only qualm is that my parents have to pay the taxes for it anyway- so..what should I do? I'm thinking about taking a year or two out of education and working abroad, and saving up and then returning maybe to go to uni in the USA, or to the UK as a foreign studetn because I want to pay the full price..am I being stupid?

If you are eligible for a government program there is nothing wrong with using it. Think about yourself and your parents first. Paying full price for something you can get for less is throwing money away. Save it. Invest it. Make political contributions to people that can help get the changes you want. Donate to charity.

[Sibirsky]

Yes! Because that's all the economy needs. That's why counterfeiting should be legal.

Thats why using precious metals as money should be legal.

Using anything should be legal. Eventually something would arise as money. I suspect it would be a metal backed currency.

[Staenwald]

You should have one i think..sibirsky what do you think?
Mercator- watch this video?
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... capitalism
thats a moral defense of capitalism.

I got distracted because of all the should's and ought's



Moral nihilism is very simple like I stated before. Non the less all moral arguments mean nothing to me.

seems like a cop-out to me...but fair enough...but how do you know whether you are helping or hindering yourself if you have no code of ethics regarding rational egoism.

[Sibirsky]

Thats why using precious metals as money should be legal.

what happens if like a new gold mine is found when they use the gold standard? does inflation occur like in the current system?

It's possible. Ideally you have a government with enough courage not to increase the money supply.

[Mercator Terra]

I got distracted because of all the should's and ought's



Moral nihilism is very simple like I stated before. Non the less all moral arguments mean nothing to me.

seems like a cop-out to me...but fair enough...but how do you know whether you are helping or hindering yourself if you have no code of ethics regarding rational egoism.

I decide for myself. Inst that quite explanatory.
Its not a matter of not having morals its a matter of knowing they are not real.
And I am an egoist read Max Striner. He doesnt use any moral arguments.

[Staenwald]

i guess...wow...i just remembered its 2011...sigh...another year gone. I'm not afriad?

[Sibirsky]

I dont make a moral case for capitalism. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't have to do with morals. You can say I disagree with x because of y.

You should have one i think..sibirsky what do you think?
Mercator- watch this video?
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer? ... capitalism
thats a moral defense of capitalism.

I have to leave. I will have to watch this, and read MT's article in several hours.

[Staenwald]

seems like a cop-out to me...but fair enough...but how do you know whether you are helping or hindering yourself if you have no code of ethics regarding rational egoism.

I decide for myself. Inst that quite explanatory.
Its not a matter of not having morals its a matter of knowing they are not real.
And I am an egoist read Max Striner. He doesnt use any moral arguments.

You can be egoistic because it's a fact that you have to to survive, and this is why it's moral. regardless of whether morals exist or not, we all have an internal code of ethics of how to behave towards one another. if there was no code of ethics -as you say there isn't- how do we know how to behave in society.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in morals, religious groups and materialists alike have coined morals , and we need an opposing moral point of view.

[Quailtopia]

I like how you have Mill in your quotes and reference Ayn Rand.

have you read atlas shrugged? it talks all about the issues behind that quote 'each according to their ability each according to their need'.

Some people work really hard, and then only get paid what their needs are. Some people don't have to work hard, and still get paid what their needs are- which could be greater than the harder worker. Some people who are clever or hard working, don't bother to use their minds anymore, because they don't the reward of what they put in, their work is everyone elses' reward, even if noone else has done nothing with them, , they still get rewarded the same.

Thats not the best explanation, but to put it simply, yeah.
Read Atlas Shrugged.

Yes, I did. There isn't much to say about her other than she uses her beliefs as a crutch for bad writing.

[Staenwald]

have you read atlas shrugged? it talks all about the issues behind that quote 'each according to their ability each according to their need'.

Some people work really hard, and then only get paid what their needs are. Some people don't have to work hard, and still get paid what their needs are- which could be greater than the harder worker. Some people who are clever or hard working, don't bother to use their minds anymore, because they don't the reward of what they put in, their work is everyone elses' reward, even if noone else has done nothing with them, , they still get rewarded the same.

Thats not the best explanation, but to put it simply, yeah.
Read Atlas Shrugged.

Yes, I did. There isn't much to say about her other than she uses her beliefs as a crutch for bad writing.

I really enjoyed the story...each to their own i guess..

[Mercator Terra]

I decide for myself. Inst that quite explanatory.
Its not a matter of not having morals its a matter of knowing they are not real.
And I am an egoist read Max Striner. He doesnt use any moral arguments.

You can be egoistic because it's a fact that you have to to survive, and this is why it's moral. regardless of whether morals exist or not, we all have an internal code of ethics of how to behave towards one another. if there was no code of ethics -as you say there isn't- how do we know how to behave in society.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in morals, religious groups and materialists alike have coined morals , and we need an opposing moral point of view.

Well...
I dont...
EDIT: You behave the way you do because of emotions and preferences.

[Staenwald]

You can be egoistic because it's a fact that you have to to survive, and this is why it's moral. regardless of whether morals exist or not, we all have an internal code of ethics of how to behave towards one another. if there was no code of ethics -as you say there isn't- how do we know how to behave in society.

Also, regardless of whether you believe in morals, religious groups and materialists alike have coined morals , and we need an opposing moral point of view.

Well...
I dont...
EDIT: You behave the way you do because of emotions and preferences.

aren't emotions a product of achieving a value or losing something or a reaction to something that happens to you? and if you enojoy feeling this emotion you will strive toward doing whatever will allow you to experience that emotion again, if not you will steer clear of doing whatever gives you a bad emotion.

But you have to be rational in order to not be hedonistic, or self-destructive. You experience pleasure eating chocolate but too much is bad for you, and you don't want to be ill and feel udner the weather. Equally for some people cutting themselves feels good yet they are being destructive to their bodies so...

And how do you determine preference?

[Mercator Terra]

Well...
I dont...
EDIT: You behave the way you do because of emotions and preferences.

aren't emotions a product of achieving a value or losing something or a reaction to something that happens to you? and if you enojoy feeling this emotion you will strive toward doing whatever will allow you to experience that emotion again, if not you will steer clear of doing whatever gives you a bad emotion.

But you have to be rational in order to not be hedonistic, or self-destructive. You experience pleasure eating chocolate but too much is bad for you, and you don't want to be ill and feel udner the weather. Equally for some people cutting themselves feels good yet they are being destructive to their bodies so...

And how do you determine preference?

Emotions.

Your statement still does not prove morals. Your just verifying what I said.