Capitalism or Socialism: Which is better?

[Mercator Terra]

mixed economy allows for the simultaneous operation of publicly and privately owned enterprises. as of socialism, the common ownership , the problem of these is that the intervention or the government control of the means of production will have the tendency to have a bad effects because on my own opinion ,it will have a better results if there is a private ownership.

If you know that, why do you want government control over some means of production then? Doesn't really make sense.

a private individual has the full capacity to improve his business if he has the freedom to control his own. thus, he will get the greatest benefits, as for capitalism, means of production are privately owned, uncontrolled enterprise may support its own but it cannot do much good in the society and the people because it is a selfish system, s

Exactly, it is becas of the selfishness and the benefit to themslves that people form companies, groups and such that benefit both themselves and the group and company.

People are not inherently selfish (in the sense your talking about. I can talk about psychological egoism but thats not what you think it is) And second the free market could do more help to society then socialism.

[Staenwald]

And even then, if regulation does mean stable- it doesnt mean stable is good. Stable= stagnant, stagnant= a deteriorating economy in a world which is constantly progressing.

[Mercator Terra]

And even then, if regulation does mean stable- it doesnt mean stable is good. Stable= stagnant, stagnant= a deteriorating economy in a world which is constantly progressing.

Not to mention it can lead to so much other things (unemployed, lower living quality, etc)

[Staenwald]

If you know that, why do you want government control over some means of production then? Doesn't really make sense.



Exactly, it is becas of the selfishness and the benefit to themslves that people form companies, groups and such that benefit both themselves and the group and company.

People are not inherently selfish (in the sense your talking about. I can talk about psychological egoism but thats not what you think it is) And second the free market could do more help to society then socialism.

I know. There's a difference between inherently selfish and being rational self-interested by nature. We don't need to be cut throat selfish- infact it puts us at risk and also it's against individual rights. Being rationally self interested allows us to fufill our needs to live, strive to make our lives even better, whilst acknowledging the rights of others in a society where individual rigths are protected by the government.

The free market is better at providing than centralised planning, plus it required people to be productive and do things for others in order to get money.

[Staenwald]

And even then, if regulation does mean stable- it doesnt mean stable is good. Stable= stagnant, stagnant= a deteriorating economy in a world which is constantly progressing.

Not to mention it can lead to so much other things (unemployed, lower living quality, etc)

tell me about it, and the denial that it doesnt work leads to further regulations, which chokes up the whole system and eventually nothing can happen.

[Mercator Terra]

People are not inherently selfish (in the sense your talking about. I can talk about psychological egoism but thats not what you think it is) And second the free market could do more help to society then socialism.

I know. There's a difference between inherently selfish and being rational self-interested by nature. We don't need to be cut throat selfish- infact it puts us at risk and also it's against individual rights. Being rationally self interested allows us to fufill our needs to live, strive to make our lives even better, whilst acknowledging the rights of others in a society where individual rigths are protected by the government.

The free market is better at providing than centralised planning, plus it required people to be productive and do things for others in order to get money.

Im not even taking about that. I dont think people are inherently self interested either. I agree with your last statement.

[Staenwald]

I'm reading We the Living by Rand at the moment. It may be exaggerated, it's most likely to be by some degree, but the conditions in soviet russia from her description was awful, and in fact the soviets had become no better than their czarist predecessor, and just destroyed the capitalist system and then reintroduced it but included force in the works too.

[Staenwald]

I know. There's a difference between inherently selfish and being rational self-interested by nature. We don't need to be cut throat selfish- infact it puts us at risk and also it's against individual rights. Being rationally self interested allows us to fufill our needs to live, strive to make our lives even better, whilst acknowledging the rights of others in a society where individual rigths are protected by the government.

The free market is better at providing than centralised planning, plus it required people to be productive and do things for others in order to get money.

Im not even taking about that. I dont think people are inherently self interested either. I agree with your last statement.

We help others when it is no issue to us- even the most individually minded people do. I;'m not gonna help someone if i'm busy, but if I have nothing to do i'm happy to help. I like to stay productive...and I have the awful habit of not being able to stop even if i want to...:S

[Mercator Terra]

Ehh Ayn Rand. Her morals... Eck! A little narcissistic. But her fiction like We The Living etc are good examples of what a centrally planned economy can do to us.

[Mercator Terra]

Also note im a moral nihilist.

[Sibirsky]

Wait, capitalism has a better economy? So THAT'S why we're in an economic crisis.
A capitalist economy may have rapid growth, but its unstable.
A regulated market is FAR more stable.

Ignoring entirely that it is idiotic regulations that caused the crisis, that regulations cause the boom and bust cycle, that regulations have perpetuated poverty...

[Mercator Terra]

Wait, capitalism has a better economy? So THAT'S why we're in an economic crisis.
A capitalist economy may have rapid growth, but its unstable.
A regulated market is FAR more stable.

Ignoring entirely that it is idiotic regulations that caused the crisis, that regulations cause the boom and bust cycle, that regulations have perpetuated poverty...

Keep on printing the dough!

[Sibirsky]

I don't live in USA in particular, but from wht I've seen, it has about one million workers, outlets in almost every city and town and seems to make a killing. Its prices are also quite low, which suggests that it is trying to drive out its competitors. And why have you asked that?

Everyone hates on Walmart in North America, it's the quintessential "evil corporation", "evilly" shutting out "good, honest competition" with lower prices and anti-union ways, it's the store that everyone goes to but everyone shuns. I don't shop there a lot because I hate the atmosphere. Too warehouse-y.

Wal-Mart is an amazing story from the business aspect. Ignoring the prices, the shopping aspect sucks.

[Staenwald]

Ehh Ayn Rand. Her morals... Eck! A little narcissistic. But her fiction like We The Living etc are good examples of what a centrally planned economy can do to us.

Her morals are consistent however, but i do like to bend them slightly, just for the sake of me appearing a little more human and less machine to everyone...hehe. The point is that her charcters are generally like the smartest, greatest people in the world who need no help with anything- we folk who need to be nice to people in case we need to trade favours need to take it more lightly. I much prefer david kelleys interpretations- the atlas society guy. If you look at the ayn rand center you will see that they are more sensitive and discrete- they make sure they have people properly qualified to make assertions. However Ayn Rand was one of the best, and she did well in the moral side of things- maybe not morraly herself (well depends how you judge it) but she knew what those morals were.

[Staenwald]

Everyone hates on Walmart in North America, it's the quintessential "evil corporation", "evilly" shutting out "good, honest competition" with lower prices and anti-union ways, it's the store that everyone goes to but everyone shuns. I don't shop there a lot because I hate the atmosphere. Too warehouse-y.

Wal-Mart is an amazing story from the business aspect. Ignoring the prices, the shopping aspect sucks.

yer...thats why we go to the 3rd market leading store chain- it's not so cheap but better quality.

[Mercator Terra]

Ehh Ayn Rand. Her morals... Eck! A little narcissistic. But her fiction like We The Living etc are good examples of what a centrally planned economy can do to us.

Her morals are consistent however, but i do like to bend them slightly, just for the sake of me appearing a little more human and less machine to everyone...hehe. The point is that her charcters are generally like the smartest, greatest people in the world who need no help with anything- we folk who need to be nice to people in case we need to trade favours need to take it more lightly. I much prefer david kelleys interpretations- the atlas society guy. If you look at the ayn rand center you will see that they are more sensitive and discrete- they make sure they have people properly qualified to make assertions. However Ayn Rand was one of the best, and she did well in the moral side of things- maybe not morraly herself (well depends how you judge it) but she knew what those morals were.

Morals lack truth value.

[Sibirsky]

I am actually stunned that this thread is still ongoing.

They never die. Even when it dies it will come back as a new thread with a new (but similar) title.

[Staenwald]

Her morals are consistent however, but i do like to bend them slightly, just for the sake of me appearing a little more human and less machine to everyone...hehe. The point is that her charcters are generally like the smartest, greatest people in the world who need no help with anything- we folk who need to be nice to people in case we need to trade favours need to take it more lightly. I much prefer david kelleys interpretations- the atlas society guy. If you look at the ayn rand center you will see that they are more sensitive and discrete- they make sure they have people properly qualified to make assertions. However Ayn Rand was one of the best, and she did well in the moral side of things- maybe not morraly herself (well depends how you judge it) but she knew what those morals were.

Morals lack truth value.

explain? sorry i'm being stupid...hehe

[Mercator Terra]

Wal-Mart is an amazing story from the business aspect. Ignoring the prices, the shopping aspect sucks.

yer...thats why we go to the 3rd market leading store chain- it's not so cheap but better quality.

I like Walmart its just the other people who shop there >_>

And yes if you ever want higher quality goods you can always go to a smaller mom and pop store.

[Mercator Terra]

Morals lack truth value.

explain? sorry i'm being stupid...hehe

Why ought/should anyone do anything? (Being a moral state claims that one ought/should do something)

[Staenwald]

yer...thats why we go to the 3rd market leading store chain- it's not so cheap but better quality.

I like Walmart its just the other people who shop there >_>

And yes if you ever want higher quality goods you can always go to a smaller mom and pop store.

I have an total aversion to processed meat- especially pork so...i'm not keen on asda- the Uk walmart- since thats like the only cold meats they sell...

[Sibirsky]

Explain why all the major economies are using mixed economies to cover up a market failure, then.

The statists are using mixed economies to give an illusion of a free market and a sham of a safety net to keep the moderates of both sides happy. There has not been market failure. There has been regulatory failure.

[Mercator Terra]

I like Walmart its just the other people who shop there >_>

And yes if you ever want higher quality goods you can always go to a smaller mom and pop store.

I have an total aversion to processed meat- especially pork so...i'm not keen on asda- the Uk walmart- since thats like the only cold meats they sell...

I go to the butcher. More expensive but better quality.

[Sibirsky]

And even then, if regulation does mean stable- it doesnt mean stable is good. Stable= stagnant, stagnant= a deteriorating economy in a world which is constantly progressing.

Not to mention it can lead to so much other things (unemployed, lower living quality, etc)

Ask these stablists what growth rate they'd be happy with. They'd tell you that 2% is great. Except that in the US, as 2% growth rate will not bring down unemployment at any meaningful rate.

[Sibirsky]

I'm reading We the Living by Rand at the moment. It may be exaggerated, it's most likely to be by some degree, but the conditions in soviet russia from her description was awful, and in fact the soviets had become no better than their czarist predecessor, and just destroyed the capitalist system and then reintroduced it but included force in the works too.

Czarist Russia was much better than the Soviet Union in comparison to the European powers.