Should civilization be destroyed?

[CIB EMPIRE]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Civilization is the reason your on your computer or whatever technolgy posting this.
It will likely also be the reason for your next meal.

[Carcharhinidae primari]

The real reason I started the thread is because I have a device which can destroy all of civilization with a single press of a button and I just needed a vote about if I should press the button or not.


Guess the vote is no so far.

hmm, would that apply to just human civilization, or any other civilizations out there?

[Yakutiya]

'Civilization' in one form or another will continue. But our current way of living, based as it is on the unsustainable use of fossil fuels, is probably not going to last another century.

We are running on an economic system in which money is essentially equivalent to debt. This means the economy must continually expand.

Economic expansion of the past 150 or so years is primarily due to the supply of abundant, cheap fossil fuels. Growth of the economy is tied directly to increasing supplies of energy. Global petroleum production from conventional sources is now estimated to have peaked around the year 2005. From now on, oil is going to be more expensive to obtain in terms of money, time, and energy returned on energy invested (sooner or later it will cost more energy to extract a barrel of oil than we derive from that barrel. Sooner, rather than later, as it turns out).

To paraphrase William R. Catton, author of Overshoot, we're like algae in a pond that has discovered a temporary glut of food (i.e. fossil fuels - and given that it takes an estimated 10 calories of oil to supply 1 calorie of food in the average American diet this not a metaphor) and multiplied like crazy. Eventually the food source will run out and the population will crash, returning to a more sustainable level or simply going extinct altogether.

Such is the way of human societies. They, like all other organic systems, follow a prescribed pattern of genesis, growth, stagnation, decay and death. Nobody wants to hear this, but I doubt the lowland Maya or any other now collapsed civilization paid much heed to these matters until it was too late. The only thing unique about this particular civilization is its global scope.

[Natapoc]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Civilization is the reason your on your computer or whatever technolgy posting this.
It will likely also be the reason for your next meal.

And yet your comment answers none of the questions at all.

[Natapoc]

The real reason I started the thread is because I have a device which can destroy all of civilization with a single press of a button and I just needed a vote about if I should press the button or not.


Guess the vote is no so far.

hmm, would that apply to just human civilization, or any other civilizations out there?

No I also posted a thread like this on random "form analogs" for every other non human civilization.

[Natapoc]

'Civilization' in one form or another will continue. But our current way of living, based as it is on the unsustainable use of fossil fuels, is probably not going to last another century.

We are running on an economic system in which money is essentially equivalent to debt. This means the economy must continually expand.

Economic expansion of the past 150 or so years is primarily due to the supply of abundant, cheap fossil fuels. Growth of the economy is tied directly to increasing supplies of energy. Global petroleum production from conventional sources is now estimated to have peaked around the year 2005. From now on, oil is going to be more expensive to obtain in terms of money, time, and energy returned on energy invested (sooner or later it will cost more energy to extract a barrel of oil than we derive from that barrel. Sooner, rather than later, as it turns out).

To paraphrase William R. Catton, author of Overshoot, we're like algae in a pond that has discovered a temporary glut of food (i.e. fossil fuels - and given that it takes an estimated 10 calories of oil to supply 1 calorie of food in the average American diet this not a metaphor) and multiplied like crazy. Eventually the food source will run out and the population will crash, returning to a more sustainable level or simply going extinct altogether.

Such is the way of human societies. They, like all other organic systems, follow a prescribed pattern of genesis, growth, stagnation, decay and death. Nobody wants to hear this, but I doubt the lowland Maya or any other now collapsed civilization paid much heed to these matters until it was too late. The only thing unique about this particular civilization is its global scope.

If this is true and assuming you "like" civilization what measures should be taken to reduce the "negative" impacts of the problem you have stated?

[Yakutiya]

The real reason I started the thread is because I have a device which can destroy all of civilization with a single press of a button and I just needed a vote about if I should press the button or not.

Somebody's been reading Derrick Jensen, I see.

'Civilization' is destroying itself even as it tries to perpetuate itself.

[Unchecked Expansion]

Civilization is the reason your on your computer or whatever technolgy posting this.
It will likely also be the reason for your next meal.

And yet your comment answers none of the questions at all.

I think it qualifies 'what has civilisation done for you' or 'what's so good about civilisation'

[Natapoc]

And yet your comment answers none of the questions at all.

I think it qualifies 'what has civilisation done for you' or 'what's so good about civilisation'

I suppose. In that case how flattering that he/she mentions MY having internet access and getting a good meal as one of his/her criteria that makes civilization worthwhile.

[Natapoc]

The real reason I started the thread is because I have a device which can destroy all of civilization with a single press of a button and I just needed a vote about if I should press the button or not.

Somebody's been reading Derrick Jensen, I see.

'Civilization' is destroying itself even as it tries to perpetuate itself.

Exactly! Someone finally understands!

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

[Unchecked Expansion]

Somebody's been reading Derrick Jensen, I see.

'Civilization' is destroying itself even as it tries to perpetuate itself.

Exactly! Someone finally understands!

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

It's a phoenix. Or an infestation. Unless you kill it all at once, it can't be stopped. It will always regrow in one form or another

[Yakutiya]

'Civilization' in one form or another will continue. But our current way of living, based as it is on the unsustainable use of fossil fuels, is probably not going to last another century.

We are running on an economic system in which money is essentially equivalent to debt. This means the economy must continually expand.

Economic expansion of the past 150 or so years is primarily due to the supply of abundant, cheap fossil fuels. Growth of the economy is tied directly to increasing supplies of energy. Global petroleum production from conventional sources is now estimated to have peaked around the year 2005. From now on, oil is going to be more expensive to obtain in terms of money, time, and energy returned on energy invested (sooner or later it will cost more energy to extract a barrel of oil than we derive from that barrel. Sooner, rather than later, as it turns out).

To paraphrase William R. Catton, author of Overshoot, we're like algae in a pond that has discovered a temporary glut of food (i.e. fossil fuels - and given that it takes an estimated 10 calories of oil to supply 1 calorie of food in the average American diet this not a metaphor) and multiplied like crazy. Eventually the food source will run out and the population will crash, returning to a more sustainable level or simply going extinct altogether.

Such is the way of human societies. They, like all other organic systems, follow a prescribed pattern of genesis, growth, stagnation, decay and death. Nobody wants to hear this, but I doubt the lowland Maya or any other now collapsed civilization paid much heed to these matters until it was too late. The only thing unique about this particular civilization is its global scope.

If this is true and assuming you "like" civilization what measures should be taken to reduce the "negative" impacts of the problem you have stated?

What I 'like' or 'dislike' is irrelevant to the process of nature.

Had people "woken up" during the oil crisis of the 1970s and earnestly begun programs to wean our civilization off oil, that might have been soon enough to prevent collapse. As it is, with a peak in production in our rear view mirrors, it's now too late for that.

The imminent collapse of civilization is not a "problem" that can be solved by any kind of political philosophy or technological fix. It is a predicament which we all must cope with the best we can as individuals and communities.

It's difficult to predict exactly how things are going to unfold from here, but certainly life is going to become much more local in scope. An immediate concern for many people, for instance, is going to be food. If you get your food from a supermarket, where the produce is delivered from a thousand miles away by petroleum powered vehicles and mass-produced on a factory farm using petroleum based fertilizers, this will become a major issue when the price of oil spikes sharply enough that you can no longer afford food (or the trucks simply cease to run altogether).

[Yakutiya]

Somebody's been reading Derrick Jensen, I see.

'Civilization' is destroying itself even as it tries to perpetuate itself.

Exactly! Someone finally understands!

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

For the same reason the algae, when presented with a temporary glut of nutrients, will increase in numbers at unsustainable levels.

We're animals. It's what we do. It's not smart, perhaps, but nature's self-correcting mechanisms will kick in sooner rather than later.

[Natapoc]

Exactly! Someone finally understands!

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

It's a phoenix. Or an infestation. Unless you kill it all at once, it can't be stopped. It will always regrow in one form or another

The sad thing is, an "advanced" civilization like this one which will never have a chance to be reborn. If you let this one fail you have no further chances for a couple million years because this one has eliminated all easy to find energy reserves and caused much of nature to become extinct and sterile.

So why allow this: viewtopic.php?p=4019287#p4019287

[Natapoc]

Exactly! Someone finally understands!

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

For the same reason the algae, when presented with a temporary glut of nutrients, will increase in numbers at unsustainable levels.

We're animals. It's what we do. It's not smart, perhaps, but nature's self-correcting mechanisms will kick in sooner rather than later.

True but we can always hope that humans are able to demonstrate that they are more rational then algae. Then again, actions speak louder then words...

[New Lusitaniagrad]

I don't know, I kinda like living past thirty.

I agree. I also enjoy electricity very much.

[Natapoc]

I don't know, I kinda like living past thirty.

I agree. I also enjoy electricity very much.

I like it when the power goes out So nice and quite without the constant buzzing of electronics. But I'm weird like that.

[Hydesland]

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

I don't think so, Tim.

[Natapoc]

Modern humans, I present to you that your actions speak louder then your words. You are causing even as we speak the destruction of civilization. Why?

I don't think so, Tim.

Tim? Who is Tim?

[Hydesland]

I don't think so, Tim.

Tim? Who is Tim?

It's you.

[Natapoc]

Tim? Who is Tim?

It's you.

No, it's you!

[Cyndonian Legion]

Well? Should it?

No.

What's so good about civilization anyway?

Answered below.

Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it?

Very few things would be easier.

Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

Like?

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?

No.

Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

Sure, but civilization would rebuild itself(if we didn't die out that is).

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

It satisfies my genetic desire for social interaction, provides me with leisure time, and challenges and opportunities I otherwise wouldn't have.

[The Rich Port]

Nah. Destroying it would be taking the easy way out. We got ourselves into these messes. It's our responsibility to dig ourselves out.

[Natapoc]

Nah. Destroying it would be taking the easy way out. We got ourselves into these messes. It's our responsibility to dig ourselves out.

Okay. How will you do that?

[Trollgaard]

Should civilization be destroyed? By all the gods and goddesses of every religion ever known to mankind YES! Civilization is a plague upon humanity, and all life in general. It is inherently destructive, oppressive, and cancerous. It grows and grows without thought to sustainability or regard for other life.

Civilization was the biggest mistake humanity ever made.