Should civilization be destroyed?

[Neo-Sincostan]

In the words of Atari Teenage Riot...
DESTROY 2000 YEARS OF CULTURE!

[New Chalcedon]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Civilisation, as a concept and as a framweork of human living, is necessary for the advancement of human knowledge (i.e., increasing the total amount of knowledge the human race is in possession of, which I regard as an unequivally good thing). However, Western civilisation, as it is today, is badly corrupted, with the following symptoms:

1) Large-scale popular apathy toward their supposedly-representative forms of government;
2) Large-scale lack of concern about the long-term consequences of actions (environmental, financial and others);
3) Unsustainable consumption patterns (again, in both environmental and fiscal terms); and
4) The simple sense of ennui & decadence which pervades our society. We no longer value industry, rather the piling-up of piles of cash and trinkets.

To quote Londo Mollari: "As a culture grows decadent, it becomes intrigued by art, by trinkets, by eccentricity. And the humans had art, and trinkets, and eccentricity to spare." We have become fascinated by trinkets and by eccentricity, longing for the bygone days of glory and perpetually dreaming of a better future through conquest - we have become decadent, and this decadence has pervaded every aspect of our increasingly consumerist society. Time to scrub the board clean and try again, methinks.

[Volnotova]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

The internet, medicines, GPS, cars, video games, ect. are all the result of civilization.

I really have no idea what you mean by "good", if you would be so kind to first define it then maybe we could have a discussion.

It seems like you mean easy living and being less worried with "good". In that case I have a question - was life really easier and less stressful in the days before city-states-and-et-cetera?

Because I seriously have my doubts about that...

[Urgolon]

Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

Yeah, just nuke the world to oblivion, any survivors will not be civilized.

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

I like it because it means I can get up every day knowing I have food to eat, and clean water to drink, and that I will not be mauled to death by wild animals. I also like it because it allows you to have more jobs than hunters and allows you to actually not live in total ignorance about how the universe works. Without civilization, you would not have your computer to even type this, in fact you would probably think that the earth was flat and magic was real.

[Arilando]

Civilization allows scientific research to better the live of human beings. If there is no civilization, how are we ever gonna survive a meteor? Civilization is necessary for the survival of the human race. It also allows you to live longer.

[Neo-Sincostan]

Civilization allows scientific research to better the live of human beings. If there is no civilization, how are we ever gonna survive a meteor? Civilization is necessary for the survival of the human race. It also allows you to live longer.

You didn't actually just say that, please tell me you didn't
I think even with the aid of scientific research, a large meteorite would still no matter what devastate earth.

[Georgism]

I think even with the aid of scientific research, a large meteorite would still no matter what devastate earth.

We could nuke it from orbit.

[Bendira]

If you wake up with testicular tortion and there isn't modern medicine, your balls are going to die and fall off.

[Katganistan]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Yes, civilization. That thing that causes us not to be shivering in caves wearing fleabitten furs and dying at thirty from completely preventable means such as malnourishment, diseases, and incidents during childbirth.

No value at all, obviously. Give it up immediately.

Why are you still on the internet? Go, go, go!

[Caninope]

Certainly not destroyed, but I would advocate a reduction. Like more ecovillages, kibbutzim, and other self-sufficient communities, and less megacities like NY or San Fran.

That would create a civilization of small communities.

[Kreanoltha]

Civilization allows scientific research to better the live of human beings. If there is no civilization, how are we ever gonna survive a meteor? Civilization is necessary for the survival of the human race. It also allows you to live longer.

You didn't actually just say that, please tell me you didn't
I think even with the aid of scientific research, a large meteorite would still no matter what devastate earth.

Yes, I think he did. It makes since. We just need to get powerful enough exo-atmospheric engines, fly them into the asteroid, and then turn the engines all the way up. That will be powerful enough to shove the steroid off course and safely away from Earth.

[Farnhamia]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Yes, civilization. That thing that causes us not to be shivering in caves wearing fleabitten furs and dying at thirty from completely preventable means such as malnourishment, diseases, and incidents during childbirth.

No value at all, obviously. Give it up immediately.

Why are you still on the internet? Go, go, go!

My thoughts exactly. It's always easy to dream about the destruction of civilization from the comfort of one's heated, well-lit, internet-connected home, perhaps with a cup of sustainably-grown coffee in hand.

[United Dependencies]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway?

Civilization is not inherently good. However, that doesn't automatically make it bad either. Personally though I rather enjoy it.

Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

There will always be problems. Hell even with civilization people will still fight over the same thing they have always fought for: Land, resources, xenophobia. I think civilization has only changed the way in which we kill others.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

No I don't won't to say that civilzation is natural but the formation of cities, communities, governments, etc doesn't seemed to have happened randomly or because someone directly forced people to. Generally I'm for things taking their own course and I believe that is what happened here. I think it is possible to return to pre civilzation if you have a large enough war or plauge of some sort.

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

I like the interconnectedness and the new ideas. In the paleolithic age you lived with your group and died with your group. The only ideas you were exposed to where the ones that were thought by the people in your group. Typically there was a fear of outsiders. There are still of course people who dislike others because of their color or where they are from but I think you'll see that as a whole our ability to travel and see the landscapes and learn other histories and reasons for the development of certain modes of thought and ideology have allowed us to move beyond our almost instinctive dislike of different people. If you catch my meaning. Plus it's nice to not have to wonder were my next meal is coming from.

[Buffett and Colbert]

What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Penguin-In-A-Can.^TM Delicious!

[Poorisolation]

You didn't actually just say that, please tell me you didn't
I think even with the aid of scientific research, a large meteorite would still no matter what devastate earth.

Yes, I think he did. It makes since. We just need to get powerful enough exo-atmospheric engines, fly them into the asteroid, and then turn the engines all the way up. That will be powerful enough to shove the steroid off course and safely away from Earth.

Well that is one possible solution but I think the essential point is that we will not know which tools to use until we have further developed our aerospace capabilities which is impossible without civilisation.

However there is a consistent strain of belief among a great many people that time and progress are somehow static. That the easy life they enjoy is not the result of thousands of years of increasing civilisation but is simply there as a natural gift and does not require the vast interwoven networks of services and infrastructure that is intrinsic to civilisation. Further many seem to believe that now is somehow the pinnacle of civilisation and not simply another transient point in time. The very mention of the idea that future progress is almost inevitable upsets them.

It is these two related ideas 1) that we could live just as well without civilisation and 2) that this current generation already enjoys the full fruits and already understands as much of the wonders of existence as will ever be enjoyed or understood that gives rise to threads like this.

[Kreanoltha]

Yes, I think he did. It makes since. We just need to get powerful enough exo-atmospheric engines, fly them into the asteroid, and then turn the engines all the way up. That will be powerful enough to shove the steroid off course and safely away from Earth.

Well that is one possible solution but I think the essential point is that we will not know which tools to use until we have further developed our aerospace capabilities which is impossible without civilisation.

However there is a consistent strain of belief among a great many people that time and progress are somehow static. That the easy life they enjoy is not the result of thousands of years of increasing civilisation but is simply there as a natural gift and does not require the vast interwoven networks of services and infrastructure that is intrinsic to civilisation. Further many seem to believe that now is somehow the pinnacle of civilisation and not simply another transient point in time. The very mention of the idea that future progress is almost inevitable upsets them.

It is these two related ideas 1) that we could live just as well without civilisation and 2) that this current generation already enjoys the full fruits and already understands as much of the wonders of existence as will ever be enjoyed or understood that gives rise to threads like this.

I've never seen this before, but if it's out there than it's incredibly stupid.

[Perlanat]

I think it should to a certain degree. I would say, go back to the tribal days. Sure, most of us wouldn't survive. But think of it, why wouldn't we survive? Because of a lack of natural selection over the last ages and a lack of common knowledge. Civilization helps the spreading of the higher and more abstract knowledge, but what do you use that knowledge for? Mostly for surviving in that very civilization that gave you that knowledge. It is knowledge that you wouldn't need outside of civilization.
The more basic knowledge, though, is overlooked, how many of us would know how to gather your own food? How many of us would be able to use everyday plants and techniques to make sure you don't die? Because if you look at tribal shamans, who admittedly use a lot of bullshit around their rituals, they also used/use techniques which science has discovered only recently.
Also, it would just eliminate so much of the crap in our lives. Crap which we believe to be necessary but which is only forced upon us by society. Taking those few tribes that survived into this age as an example we can see that gathering your food will only take 3-4 hours of your day. Leaving the rest of the day open for playing, interacting with one another, music, learning, improving your surroundings, making clothes and other things, etc. 3-4 hours, and you get direct results. So it's not even 3-4 hours of work where you have an abstract goal but hours after which you will have proof that you just did something useful.
So just think about it, do we really want what we have now? Or do we want this because we are used to it? I don't know, but I think we would be better of with a few steps back.

[Poorisolation]

I think it should to a certain degree. I would say, go back to the tribal days. Sure, most of us wouldn't survive. But think of it, why wouldn't we survive? Because of a lack of natural selection over the last ages and a lack of common knowledge. Civilization helps the spreading of the higher and more abstract knowledge, but what do you use that knowledge for? Mostly for surviving in that very civilization that gave you that knowledge. It is knowledge that you wouldn't need outside of civilization.
The more basic knowledge, though, is overlooked, how many of us would know how to gather your own food? How many of us would be able to use everyday plants and techniques to make sure you don't die? Because if you look at tribal shamans, who admittedly use a lot of bullshit around their rituals, they also used/use techniques which science has discovered only recently.
Also, it would just eliminate so much of the crap in our lives. Crap which we believe to be necessary but which is only forced upon us by society. Taking those few tribes that survived into this age as an example we can see that gathering your food will only take 3-4 hours of your day. Leaving the rest of the day open for playing, interacting with one another, music, learning, improving your surroundings, making clothes and other things, etc. 3-4 hours, and you get direct results. So it's not even 3-4 hours of work where you have an abstract goal but hours after which you will have proof that you just did something useful.

So just think about it, do we really want what we have now? Or do we want this because we are used to it? I don't know, but I think we would be better of with a few steps back.

Do I really want what I have now? Yes being really cold and slowly starving to death because this year the game all died off is no fun.

Well do I want what I have because I am used to it or because I have had at least a brief experience of the alternative? I am going with the latter here.

You know you have a an actual opportunity to explore what life is like a few steps back by either taking part in an experimental archaeology project (they frequently need volunteers) or volunteering to go out and help in one of those parts of the World that do not yet benefit much from civilisation (of which there are still too many imo) or take yourself off and become a hermit.

[Free Soviets]

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?

if the options are prevent it from ever happening or have it happen the same way again, i vote for stopping it forever. however nice my life is right now, it can't justify the ~10,000 years of unconscionable suffering it took to get here.

Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

civilization has collapsed before, it can certainly happen again. i'm not so sure we could voluntarily give it up, though. even if the vast majority wanted to, there seems to be a coordination problem.

[Lloydopolis]

Since everyone seems to have the benefits of human civilisation pinned down fairly well, lets try to advance the argument by considering the benfits of living without civilisation.

*thinks for a moment*

Err, lots of breathing space? Oh no, wait, that space is filled with dangerous animals, some of whom are actively trying to kill and eat you.

*thinks some more*

Well damn, there aren't any.

Seriously, though, I can't understand how this argument came up in the first place. Civilisation is the foundation of all our lives, the thing that allows us to thrive in relative peace and comfort. Of course some parts of the world still live in abject poverty, but their condition would likely be far worse without a civilised framework in which to live, and through civilised means their current stations may one day be improved, a far greater alternative to living in a state where advancement is impossible, and that's ignoring the small triviality that if civilisation were to just "disappear", then billions of people would die horribly. If the only argument against civilisation is "its complicated", then I'm fairly happy to say I'll take "complicated" over "absolute excrement" any day.

[Natapoc]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Yes, civilization. That thing that causes us not to be shivering in caves wearing fleabitten furs and dying at thirty from completely preventable means such as malnourishment, diseases, and incidents during childbirth.

No value at all, obviously. Give it up immediately.

Why are you still on the internet? Go, go, go!

Katganistan, I really expected more from you. One should be able to have a discussion on the problems/benefits of civilization without being essentially told to get off the internet.

I asked the question: Should civilization be destroyed. I did not advocate destruction of civilization. Do you know why I did not advocate it? Because I would not want civilization destroyed, on the contrary I want to see it survive and NOT destroy itself.

Ridiculous comments such as yours remind me why I often consider NSG to be useless as a place to discuss ideas or concepts.

One should be able to challenge a viewpoint with questions without it being assumed that one agrees with the affirmative response to such questions.

[Noders]

GIVE ME CIVILIZATION OR GIVE ME DEATH............yea that actually sums it all up i think

[Perlanat]

Do I really want what I have now? Yes being really cold and slowly starving to death because this year the game all died off is no fun.

Well, who's saying you're living in the cold north without any shelter? And those that would live there would certainly have adapted, it's not as if the Inuits massively froze to death every winter or as if most of the American continent was populated via tribes that came via the north. Secondly, you don't only live on meat so don't worry, you won't die because there's less game, unless of course all animals suddenly have completely disappeared, but in that case current civilization would probably also have a problem I think.

You know you have a an actual opportunity to explore what life is like a few steps back by either taking part in an experimental archaeology project (they frequently need volunteers) or volunteering to go out and help in one of those parts of the World that do not yet benefit much from civilisation (of which there are still too many imo) or take yourself off and become a hermit.

I know, and I am very interested in those projects, but those are still not comparable to how it actually would be, because of the amount of information and experience that has disappeared over the generations. You must also not forget that our bodies are not used to those circumstances. Modern man is more susceptible to diseases and allergies then ever. We also sit on our butts for the greater part of the day so our bodies aren't as fit and even stuff like wearing shoes, while being a great comfort, makes our soles weaker and would greatly make the experience of living historically in such a project harder then it would have been, etc.
And if you take the examples of the poorer countries, I also agree that there are too much of them. But most part of their problems isn't because of how they are, but how they are compared to the rest of the world. They have access to weapons which are far more destructive then they have ever seen. They are not able to fund themselves because they have to pay terrible debts to the other, more advanced countries. Their leaders have been given power by the more advanced countries but are just not capable of governing such great countries in the western style, something which we expect of them.

[Natapoc]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

The internet, medicines, GPS, cars, video games, ect. are all the result of civilization.

I really have no idea what you mean by "good", if you would be so kind to first define it then maybe we could have a discussion.

It seems like you mean easy living and being less worried with "good". In that case I have a question - was life really easier and less stressful in the days before city-states-and-et-cetera?

Because I seriously have my doubts about that...

Feel free to define you own good I asked about your viewpoint not mine. I could very easily define a "good" that required you arrive at my specific viewpoints but that would be no fun would it?

[Katganistan]

You have been using pine needles?

Lets just say when you're out in the woods hunting and its a mile back to toliet paper and you're praire doggin it, you use what you can get.

Leaves?
Your hand?
Nice soft used dollar bills?
Three shells?