Should civilization be destroyed?

[Nadkor]

I read somewhere that beer was possibly one of the driving forces behind the development of civilisation (settling down, cultivating grain, etc.)

Nothing that is motivated by beer can possibly be a bad thing.

I dunno, I've done some pretty stupid things when motivated by beer.

Well, in hindsight. In a few thousand years, once civilisation has collapsed, people will look back and go "probably shouldn't have done that, that, and that"

But I guarantee, of all the stupid things, there's not one you wouldn't do again if you had the chance.

[Kreanoltha]

What evidence do you have that planet Earth's third world countries are anywhere near catching up to the level of development of post-industrial western states?

Made an edit, sorry.

They aren't, however they aren't worse off for civilization, most of the problems of the third world are caused by their clinging to primitive beliefs, rather then embracing that which has made the west prosperous. Where they have accepted even some of those tenants their lives are much better off.

They will not catch up to the West so long as the west continues to so greatly advance ahead of them, that is not to say however that the Third World will never catch up to the standards of the West today. They will do so, and they will exceed beyond that, in time.

How about we drop the moniker "civilization" and just properly call it capitalism, anyways.

May I point out that there are places that should be far ahed of the West in terms of development? Aferica and the Middle East have enough gold, diamonds, and oil to trounce us in terms of development, but the people, not civilization and certainly not capitalism, are holding them back.

[Natapoc]

Some seem to be making the argument that the problem is not civilization but rather how the proceeds of civilization are shared among the members of civilization that is the problem.

This seems reasonable, however it does not solve the massive environmental problems and extinctions civilization has caused and continues to cause. There is much evidence that if things continue as they are (even if you shared all the resources evenly) "civilization" would be forced to collapse by environmental damage.

Really? What evidence?

Methane time bomb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_methane_release

Peak water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_water

Fishery over capacity:
http://www.eur-oceans.eu/WP9/Factsheets ... 10_web.pdf

Oceanic dead zones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_zone_%28ecology%29

Peak Uranium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_uranium

Humans driving extinction faster then species can evolve:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... ies-evolve

... And so on.

[Kreanoltha]

I dunno, I've done some pretty stupid things when motivated by beer.

Well, in hindsight. In a few thousand years, once civilisation has collapsed communism has finally been debunked, people will look back and go "probably shouldn't have done that, that, and that"

But I guarantee, of all the stupid things, there's not one you wouldn't do again if you had the chance.

Fixed. Anyway yes beer and liquor were driving forces behind civilization because they provided as safe source of liquids. It was too dangerous to drink "fresh" water because there was an excellent chance you would get dysentery or malaria from it. Coffee was the next major change because it still cleaned the water for people, but it contained caffeine instead of alcohol allowing the industrial revolution to take place.

[The Batorys]

I dunno, I've done some pretty stupid things when motivated by beer.

Well, in hindsight. In a few thousand years, once civilisation has collapsed, people will look back and go "probably shouldn't have done that, that, and that"

But I guarantee, of all the stupid things, there's not one you wouldn't do again if you had the chance.

Yeah, I'd probably make all those mistakes again. At least the ones involving beer.

Whiskey, on the other hand...

[Korintar]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

I don't mean to sound harsh, but my only response to the idea of destroying civilization is, "F***, No! Just, No! You're not!" My reason is that I, personally, would be totally incapable of surviving in such an environment due to my rather fragile health and physical disabilities. You, yourself, by virtue of being a vegan and by virtue of being a poster on NSG benefit from civilization everyday. I like having all the modern technologies, I like being able to lead a full and independent life, I like not being a burden to my community. Now, if we were talking pre-literate civilization, then we might be onto something... it'd be nice not to have to fill out all those fricken forms, to rely solely on my speaking ability to get my point across and people would take my word for it that I said what I said and I meant it without it needing to be in writing.

[The Merchant Republics]

Well, in hindsight. In a few thousand years, once civilisation has collapsed communism has finally been debunked, people will look back and go "probably shouldn't have done that, that, and that"

But I guarantee, of all the stupid things, there's not one you wouldn't do again if you had the chance.

Fixed. Anyway yes beer and liquor were driving forces behind civilization because they provided as safe source of liquids. It was too dangerous to drink "fresh" water because there was an excellent chance you would get dysentery or malaria from it. Coffee was the next major change because it still cleaned the water for people, but it contained caffeine instead of alcohol allowing the industrial revolution to take place.

I know I have no need to ask, but you aren't crediting coffee as the source of the industrial revolution, are you?
Because alcohol was no less popular for the industrial revolution or coffee's sake.

[Ifreann]

I dunno, I've done some pretty stupid things when motivated by beer.

Well, in hindsight. In a few thousand years, once civilisation has collapsed, people will look back and go "probably shouldn't have done that, that, and that"

But I guarantee, of all the stupid things, there's not one you wouldn't do again if you had the chance.

The chance, and a comparable amount of beer.

[Nadkor]

Well, in hindsight. In a few thousand years, once civilisation has collapsed, people will look back and go "probably shouldn't have done that, that, and that"

But I guarantee, of all the stupid things, there's not one you wouldn't do again if you had the chance.

Fixed. Anyway yes beer and liquor were driving forces behind civilization because they provided as safe source of liquids. It was too dangerous to drink "fresh" water because there was an excellent chance you would get dysentery or malaria from it. Coffee was the next major change because it still cleaned the water for people, but it contained caffeine instead of alcohol allowing the industrial revolution to take place.

No, that wasn't what I was referring to.

And you can fuck off with the "fixed" shite.

[Kreanoltha]

Fixed. Anyway yes beer and liquor were driving forces behind civilization because they provided as safe source of liquids. It was too dangerous to drink "fresh" water because there was an excellent chance you would get dysentery or malaria from it. Coffee was the next major change because it still cleaned the water for people, but it contained caffeine instead of alcohol allowing the industrial revolution to take place.

I know I have no need to ask, but you aren't crediting coffee as the source of the industrial revolution, are you?
Because alcohol was no less popular for the industrial revolution or coffee's sake.

Yes actually. There was a rise in popularity and a corresponding price decrease at about that time. Alcohol remained as popular, but people replaced their morning gin with coffee and became more productive as a result.

[The Merchant Republics]

I know I have no need to ask, but you aren't crediting coffee as the source of the industrial revolution, are you?
Because alcohol was no less popular for the industrial revolution or coffee's sake.

Yes actually. There was a rise in popularity and a corresponding price decrease at about that time. Alcohol remained as popular, but people replaced their morning gin with coffee and became more productive as a result.

Wouldn't that be a symptom of the revolution, rather then a cause, the buyer's market for labour that allowed people to accept such long hours and conditions also demanded high productivity, keeping oneself awake and productive became important to keeping a job, thus coffee became more popular then mind-numbing unproductive gin?

Seems more plausible to me.

[Mike the Progressive]

Yes, the game should be destroyed, it is absolutely horrid.

But in all seriousness, no, I don't think civilization should be destroyed. By that logic people should be destroyed because they are prone to failures and mistakes. Well actually that is my point, don't blame civilization -whatever that is. Blame people for being stupid.

[Kreanoltha]

Yes actually. There was a rise in popularity and a corresponding price decrease at about that time. Alcohol remained as popular, but people replaced their morning gin with coffee and became more productive as a result.

Wouldn't that be a symptom of the revolution, rather then a cause, the buyer's market for labour that allowed people to accept such long hours and conditions also demanded high productivity, keeping oneself awake and productive became important to keeping a job, thus coffee became more popular then mind-numbing unproductive gin?

Seems more plausible to me.

That is a good explanation of the data as well. That was just the interpretation given by the History Channel's analyst. I find yours a bit more plausible myself.

[The Deleted Chris]

Fixed. Anyway yes beer and liquor were driving forces behind civilization because they provided as safe source of liquids. It was too dangerous to drink "fresh" water because there was an excellent chance you would get dysentery or malaria from it. Coffee was the next major change because it still cleaned the water for people, but it contained caffeine instead of alcohol allowing the industrial revolution to take place.

No, that wasn't what I was referring to.

And you can fuck off with the "fixed" shite.

It is a fucking tragic habit no? Would you repeat and slightly amend the sentence of a person with whom you were debating and then say "fixed" afterwards? Of course not.

[The Merchant Republics]

No, that wasn't what I was referring to.

And you can fuck off with the "fixed" shite.

It is a fucking tragic habit no? Would you repeat and slightly amend the sentence of a person with whom you were debating and then say "fixed" afterwards? Of course not.

It's all good natured fun, fellas. If you want sombre and serious debate there are places for it, NSG is to my mind, while certainly a place above the rest, still quite casual.

[The Batorys]

Fixed. Anyway yes beer and liquor were driving forces behind civilization because they provided as safe source of liquids. It was too dangerous to drink "fresh" water because there was an excellent chance you would get dysentery or malaria from it. Coffee was the next major change because it still cleaned the water for people, but it contained caffeine instead of alcohol allowing the industrial revolution to take place.

No, that wasn't what I was referring to.

And you can fuck off with the "fixed" shite.

*wuvs*



Not sure what communism has to do with either of our comments.

[Kreanoltha]

It is a fucking tragic habit no? Would you repeat and slightly amend the sentence of a person with whom you were debating and then say "fixed" afterward? Of course not.

It's all good natured fun, fellas. If you want somber and serious debate there are places for it, NSG is to my mind, while certainly a place above the rest, still quite casual.

This^. I was just having a bit of fun.

[Nadkor]

It is a fucking tragic habit no? Would you repeat and slightly amend the sentence of a person with whom you were debating and then say "fixed" afterwards? Of course not.

It's all good natured fun, fellas. If you want sombre and serious debate there are places for it, NSG is to my mind, while certainly a place above the rest, still quite casual.

Who says anything about sombre and serious debate? It's, as TDC said, tragic.

[The Deleted Chris]

It's all good natured fun, fellas. If you want sombre and serious debate there are places for it, NSG is to my mind, while certainly a place above the rest, still quite casual.

Who says anything about sombre and serious debate? It's, as TDC said, tragic.

It's not as though I'm as Malcolm Tuckerish in real life as I am here, but I'm honestly at a loss as to what I'd do if somebody did that "fixed" thing in personal debate.

[Gauthier]

Let me pose a question: What is there to gain by discarding civilization?

The chance to become a warlord ruling over an oppressed mass of course!

[Ifreann]

Who says anything about sombre and serious debate? It's, as TDC said, tragic.

It's not as though I'm as Malcolm Tuckerish in real life as I am here, but I'm honestly at a loss as to what I'd do if somebody did that "fixed" thing in personal debate.

Personally I'd assume I was in a Matrix film.

[Kreanoltha]

Let me pose a question: What is there to gain by discarding civilization?

I like this. There is nothing at all to be gained, and if it actually happened then most people would be killed.

[Norstal]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Quite frankly, I want to have a threesome before I die.

So there. Without civilization, I can't have a threesome.

[Sociobiology]

Well? Should it? What's so good about civilization anyway? Imagine how much more easy everything would be without it? Nearly all the problems that people are so worried about (often to the point of killing each other) these days are the direct result of civilization.

If you could have stopped civilization from ever stating would you have?
Do you think it is possible to return to a pre civilization state?

If you like civilization why? What value is there in civilization for you personally?

Quite frankly, I want to have a threesome before I die.

So there. Without civilization, I can't have a threesome.

well tribal wars were far more lethal than modern wars so I don't accept your premise. and the biggest problems, racism, wanton environmental destruction, and war were worse before civilization, so the thought of going backwards is pretty terrifying.

[Qwcasd]

It is obviously the best thing that has ever happened to humanity, as it allows so many humans to exist.