What do you think of the college Greek system? Roll Call!

[Poliwanacraca]

When you use such methods to avoid actually learning the material, as test banks do, absolutely YES!

Stop dancing in circles. Either admit a good teacher wont be issuing new tests with repeat questions with repeat answers thereby rending prior knowledge of previous questions irrelevant or explain how this reality fits in your current argument please.

Absolute nonsense. My mother, a biology professor, obviously asks essentially the same questions on any given test over the same material. When the material to be covered is, say, cell organelles, there will ALWAYS be a question that is essentially, "Here is a diagram of a cell. Label the organelles we've been talking about in class." It would be crazy for her to have to leave off a blitheringly obvious question like that or find someone to draw her a new diagram of a cell every semester because lazy little shits try to memorize the order in which things are labeled on that particular diagram rather than just learning the freaking material. To claim that this makes her a "bad teacher" is utter garbage.

[Concurria]

The issue: The Business major.
The debaters: College administrators and PhD educators.
The question: Does the Business major hold a candle to the technical and philosophical demands of the BA and BS degrees?
The answer: Still searching.

And what is your point?

This is a big issue, discussed at all levels, and not some trite recommendation by a bitter few.

[Ifreann]

When you use such methods to avoid actually learning the material, as test banks do, absolutely YES!

Stop dancing in circles. Either admit a good teacher wont be issuing new tests with repeat questions with repeat answers thereby rending prior knowledge of previous questions irrelevant or explain how this reality fits in your current argument please.

Absolute nonsense. My mother, a biology professor, obviously asks essentially the same questions on any given test over the same material. When the material to be covered is, say, cell organelles, there will ALWAYS be a question that is essentially, "Here is a diagram of a cell. Label the organelles we've been talking about in class." It would be crazy for her to have to leave off a blitheringly obvious question like that or find someone to draw her a new diagram of a cell every semester because lazy little shits try to memorize the order in which things are labeled on that particular diagram rather than just learning the freaking material. To claim that this makes her a "bad teacher" is utter garbage.

There are only so many ways to phrase a question that tests for the same knowledge. And the courses are very likely to be testing for the same knowledge each year.

[Daistallia 2104]

The issue: The Business major.
The debaters: College administrators and PhD educators.
The question: Does the Business major hold a candle to the technical and philosophical demands of the BA and BS degrees?
The answer: Still searching.

You're still not making any sense. I suggest you try simple English sentences.

I think he's trying to say that academics make arguments about removing business courses from universities and colleges, where as the rest of society would not.


Though what point this is meant to have is beyond me.

Maybe.

If you can work that out of the following, you'll have earned a gold star.
"This is an argument made in higher education, much less, among lay people."[quote="Concurria"]

[Poliwanacraca]

Stop dancing in circles. Either admit a good teacher wont be issuing new tests with repeat questions with repeat answers thereby rending prior knowledge of previous questions irrelevant or explain how this reality fits in your current argument please.

Absolute nonsense. My mother, a biology professor, obviously asks essentially the same questions on any given test over the same material. When the material to be covered is, say, cell organelles, there will ALWAYS be a question that is essentially, "Here is a diagram of a cell. Label the organelles we've been talking about in class." It would be crazy for her to have to leave off a blitheringly obvious question like that or find someone to draw her a new diagram of a cell every semester because lazy little shits try to memorize the order in which things are labeled on that particular diagram rather than just learning the freaking material. To claim that this makes her a "bad teacher" is utter garbage.

There are only so many ways to phrase a question that tests for the same knowledge. And the courses are very likely to be testing for the same knowledge each year.

Precisely.

[Concurria]

The issue: The Business major.
The debaters: College administrators and PhD educators.
The question: Does the Business major hold a candle to the technical and philosophical demands of the BA and BS degrees?
The answer: Still searching.

You're still not making any sense. I suggest you try simple English sentences.

I think he's trying to say that academics make arguments about removing business courses from universities and colleges, where as the rest of society would not.


Though what point this is meant to have is beyond me.

Maybe.

If you can work that out of the following, you'll have earned a gold star.
"This is an argument made in higher education, much less, among lay people."

It really was quite simple from the beginning, I can understand why you might not have understood it, but really, it hasn't been that hard.

I'm saying that there exists scholarly debates about whether or not the Bachelors of Business Administration (and similar degrees) should be considered an actual degree granted by a degree-granting institution.

[Daistallia 2104]

The confusion stems, as I stated before from those last two clauses.

"This is an argument made in higher education." makes sense.

"This is an argument made in higher education, much less, among lay people." does not make any sense at all.

[Concurria]

The confusion stems, as I stated before from those last two clauses.

"This is an argument made in higher education." makes sense.

"This is an argument made in higher education, much less, among lay people." does not make any sense at all.

Then just replace it with: "In addition to..."

[Ravea]

Being someone who doesn't drink, it doesn't interest me. Not my scene, anyways.

[Grave_n_idle]

<--- Theta Chi class of 90

I had the best time of my life in a fraternity. In the 80s rules on alcohol and hazing were more relaxedand Nothing and i mean NOTHING for the rest of your long life, ever tops having 250 drunk women in your basement every weekend or doing crazy shit like breaking into Pikes house during winter break and breaking water pipes in basement and making a nice ice skating rink for them because they were assholes (Statute of Limitations is long past) Good times.


(Oh cool you can self edit thread titles now?)

Nonsensical and counter-productive. Partly because of the nature of the concept, itself, but mainly because there is an acquired 'tradition' element that makes the whole prospect destructive.

[UNIverseVERSE]

And you're PROUD of this? Jesus fucking christ.

My thoughts exactly. It's especially ironic given this post from later in the thread:

I for one have always included the values of my fraternity as part of the history. Hell, I wont give a person a bid, let alone let them graduate pledging, if they aren't a gentleman that meets a strict set or criteria.

(emphasis mine)

So a gentleman is someone who gets roaring drunk, makes jokes about rape, objectifies females, and brags about it? What the fuck do you have to do to not be a gentleman?

We voted out shitty pledges all the time, can't think of a single one that wasn't blackballed for a substantial reason though. When you have history and traditions going back to the 1800s admitting a new member isn't something that is taken very likely.

I was visiting a castle once, and they did a tour. When the guide came to the bridge into the keep, she stopped, and said "Are there any Americans here today?" Half a dozen people put their hands up. She continued "Okay. This is the New Bridge -- it's only 500 years old".

The university I will shortly be attending* is 800 years old. History and traditions going back to the 1800s are considered worthlessly short. And yet for some reason they manage to admit new members based on nothing more than academic talent and potential**.

Incredibly, they even teach one to write correctly -- I have refrained from fixing the typographical and/or grammatical errors in every one of your posts I have quoted.

*Cambridge, if the exams went okay.

**In theory -- the practice is surprisingly close though.

NCSU offered three different calc courses depending on the major. 121 was mainly for the liberal art kids, 131 for the basic science majors, 141 for engineering and the mathematical science majors. I have included the catalog reference for your reading below. I came from a large pledge class so naming all of their majors would be quite difficult and take far too long but I had several duel majoring in electrical and computer engineering, a few in aerospace engineering, a couple in mechanical, one in industrial, and so on so forth.

Okay, let's jump straight to the last (and presumably hardest) flavour.

MA 141 Calculus I UNITS: 4 - Offered in Fall Spring Summer Prerequisite: MA 111 with grade of C- or better or placement via Level Two Achievement Test First of three semesters in a calculus sequence for science and engineering majors. Functions, graphs, limits, derivatives, rules of differentiation, definite integrals, fundamental theorem of calculus, applications of derivatives and integrals. Use of computation tools. Credit is not allowed for more than one of MA 141, 131, 121

Now, for myself, coming out of high school:
Functions - yep
Graphs - yep
Limits - informally
Derivatives - yep
Rules of differentiation - yep
Definite integrals - yep
Fundamental theorem of calculus - yep
Applications of derivatives and integrals - depends on what you mean by 'applications'
Use of computation tools - nope

Sorry, this was supposed to demonstrate how challenging things are?

[Grays Harbor]

never had much use for the frats and sororities when I was in college. I had more important things to do, like get an education.

[Parthenon]

If you are trying to impress anyone by saying that you know the material in a freshman level review math for engineering majors you have failed miserably. Those that didn't place out of 141 based on placement scores found much of the material to be review as that's exactly what the course was, a review and weed out for those that don't belong in engineering. Hell, every freshman level class is a review of high school material. MA241 and 341 are the courses where you actually learn new material.

This is by far the single best definition of a gentleman that I have found in all my years. It served as the basis for what I looked for in potential new members. If you will notice, there is nothing about rape, drinking, or objectifying women in it.

The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

- John Walter Wayland

By the way, It is quite hysterical that you are comparing the age of a university in England to the age of a small fraternal organization in the US. Didn't you ever hear that old witticism "apples to oranges"?

[UNIverseVERSE]

If you are trying to impress anyone by saying that you know the material in a freshman level review math for engineering majors you have failed miserably. Those that didn't place out of 141 based on placement scores found much of the material to be review as that's exactly what the course was, a review and weed out for those that don't belong in engineering. Hell, every freshman level class is a review of high school material. MA241 and 341 are the courses where you actually learn new material.

Unless I completely misread the thread, you were using this as an example of the engineering courses being challenging.

This is by far the single best definition of a gentleman that I have found in all my years. It served as the basis for what I looked for in potential new members. If you will notice, there is nothing about rape, drinking, or objectifying women in it.

The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

- John Walter Wayland

Sure. Which is why you've been bragging about how cool frat life is -- you get to drink loads, objectify chicks, be irresponsible, and generally behave boorishly and atrociously. In this country, behaviour like that identifies one as a hooligan, not a gentleman.

By the way, It is quite hysterical that you are comparing the age of a university in England to the age of a small fraternal organization in the US. Didn't you ever hear that old witticism "apples to oranges"?

You said, essentially, "Because we're so old and have such long traditions, we need to be very exclusive for all sorts of reasons". I said, essentially, "Bullshit", using the example of a much older institution, with much longer traditions. If you still insist on the university being too old, one could pick out colleges instead. Hell, my secondary school is older than your frat, has longer traditions, and is not exclusive at all. Is that a fairer comparison?

[Intestinal fluids]

Just for something to ponder...

Test files no longer offer leg up to Greek system
"Although the maintenance of test files does not violate any University code, their existence presents ethical questions for some."

http://dailyuw.com/2003/1/17/test-files ... ek-system/

Stockpiles stir concern

" Although many students seemed to think that stockpiles of old exams could be an issue of academic dishonesty, administrators from Student Affairs and Student Life said that Carnegie Mellon’s academic integrity policy does not prohibit the use or collection of old course materials."
http://www.thetartan.org/2008/11/10/news/greeks

[Aelosia]

I am the only one here who saw derivatives and integral calculus during my last year of High School?

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I am the only one here who saw derivatives and integral calculus during my last year of High School?

Nope.

[Farnhamia]

I am the only one here who saw derivatives and integral calculus during my last year of High School?

Nope.

I did but that was because of the drugs. I think. Yeah, the drugs. *nod*

[UNIverseVERSE]

I am the only one here who saw derivatives and integral calculus during my last year of High School?

Of course not, which is why I questioned the wisdom of citing those course descriptions as proof that it isn't an easy course.

[Ravea]

I am the only one here who saw derivatives and integral calculus during my last year of High School?

Derivatives raped and killed my family.

[Heinleinites]

How the hell is stating that test banks are obsolete copping up to cheating?

It is admitting to having used them.

No it's not. Having knowledge of a thing/process/event does not equate with use of or participation in that thing/process/event. If I were to say 'The Model T is obsolete' there is no grounds for you to logically assume from that statement that I have ever driven one, or even seen one. At best(or worst, depending on your point of view) the most you can assume from that statement is that I know that there was once a car called a 'Model T' and that I am asserting that it is obsolete.

[Lycandom]

First, I'd like to commend some posts:

greed and death said:

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
The Greek System and College Rape
http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/collegerape.html#frat
http://gas.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/3/4/457
http://escholarship.bc.edu/dissertations/AAI3103213/

Me and my brothers would never tolerate that sort of thing.
We even have an unwritten rule to cock block anyone who's girl might be a little tipsy at a Fraternity event.

I would hope that anyone would step in when something fishy is happening at a party. I would want someone to do it for me and I would certainly do it for them. It is a serious thing.

Parthenon wrote:
Any organizations that regularly holds events with high numbers of people and high quantities of alcohol is going to be prone to having a higher per capita number of sexual offenses than the norm. Happily, my old chapter has never had a rape reported in its extensive history and we intend to keep it that way. Hell, the university requires all Greek students (which is around 15% of the student body last I heard) to attend regular seminars on rape and sexual assault.

Moral of the story, don't be a douchebag and disrespect women in public when any Greek worth their salt is around. You will be leaving home alone and you will be leaving with a black eye and bloody nose if you try anything.

Moral of the story, don't disrespect anyone man or woman. Good standing up.

Test banks are obsolete in this day and age. Professors either require tests to be handed in, change them each semester, or post samples from previous years on the course website.
The true reason that fraternities have higher GPAs is threefold:
1. Fraternities teach effective time management to freshman at an accelerated rate than they would learn on their own.
2. You have brothers in just about every major that have taken just about every class offered by the university and would tutor you in it for free.
3. One loses social privileges and gets additional study hours if they slack off one semester and score below the fraternity minimum.

It is true that a lot of courses test for the same knowledge each year, but a lot of courses also change and add new objectives each year. While some questions might be the same, others will be different. Test banks or whatever you want to call them can be used and are not cheating, if 1. The Prof provides them or 2. they tell you that you can use them. If they put them on their website then they don't consider it cheating. I really don't see this statement as any admission of cheating. I see:
1. Tutoring/Mentoring
2. Tutoring
3. You suck, you don't get to do anything

The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

- John Walter Wayland

Intestinal fluids wrote:

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
I'm not sure which is sadder the desperate aspiration to elitism that causes many to think they should belong to the Greek system or the depravity that many of members of that system brag about.

When did you get old and burned out? You need to go out and have some fun and maybe get laid and lighten up a bit and spend some time remembering your youth better. Depravity was what college was all about and if it wasnt for you, then you didnt do it right. I was in a great and wild fraternity, but our grades were higher then the student body average and noone ever got arrested and only times the cops ever showed up was for the occasional noise complaint. Depravity? Lots of it. But it was good clean harmless fun and 20 years later, the entire experience STILL puts a smile on my face. How many things ever happened to you that can do that?

First, I underlined the statements I found ridiculous. Secondly, your type of fun is obviously Cat-Tribe's type of disgust. He just finds fun in different things like perhaps not drinking like a fish and passing out or perhaps not going and getting "laid" by a random girl/guy you know nothing about and who could potential have something.

Dakini wrote:

Concurria wrote:
I've found that people who argue "there's more to college than books" are the least likely to offer the type of stimulating interaction they allude to. If I could find people that were scholars and inquirers 24/7, i'd be there in seconds flat. But at least here, that isn't the case. When people close the books, they usually close an attempt to learn past what they already know.

...There's more to college than books because you do learn course material outside of textbooks. From profs and peers alike...

But also, for me, college was the first time I lived away from home so there was also a lot of learning about cooking for myself regularly, cleaning more than just a small part of a house, dealing with roommates, balancing a budget, time management etc... basically how to be a "grown up" (sort of).

But you also definitely don't have to be a part of a lame club to do this...

Yes.

Concurria wrote:
The issue: The Business major.
The debaters: College administrators and PhD educators.
The question: Does the Business major hold a candle to the technical and philosophical demands of the BA and BS degrees?
The answer: Still searching.

Well, Concurria, I would say that Business is definitely a large part of all economies across the world. Some colleges even specialize in business, so if you took away business than some colleges would have nothing. Business is part of the curriculum because it is a possible job that you can have. All jobs require training whether you go to college for Software Engineering or to a Trade School for Heating and Cooling. Business is a job and you need to be trained. To some, BA and BS degrees are challenging, to others Business is challenging. It is just how things are. Business is a part of the world and thus someone has to do it. When you go to get a job, you get one at a...business...most likely. (Side note: I'm not a business major.) Is that a good answer for you?

[Port Arcana]

I don't like most frats because they tend to recruit guys who the traditional stereotypical "macho hazing too much testosterone" types. Our university has frats, and I like a few of them because they recruit more nerdy and interesting people and less of the pop-your-collar, rich elitist types. But for the most part greek life just isn't for me.

[Galloism]

I might have been in a fraternity in college...

I don't really remember.

[Grave_n_idle]

I might have been in a fraternity in college...

I don't really remember.

Then you probably were...