What does "Libertarian" mean to you?

[South Lorenya]

Where are people getting the connection between libertarianism and social conservatism from?

A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.

If he was a libertarian, he wouldn't refer to himself as a social conservative.

[The Deleted Chris]

Where are people getting the connection between libertarianism and social conservatism from?

A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.

"Socially conservative" denoting what? And presumably this is limited to the USA?

[Hydesland]

A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative.

Very strongly disagree. You're essentially saying that a vast majority of libertarians, aren't actually libertarian.

[South Lorenya]

A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.

"Socially conservative" denoting what? And presumably this is limited to the USA?

"Social conservative" means that they have the same position on civil rights as conservatives, give or take. Libertarians, however, are normally socially liberal and economically conservative.

[The Black Forrest]

What does libertarian mean to me?

Angry individuals who are masters of American History, Law and the Constitution.

Disclaimer: The ones I have met personally that is......

[Occupied Deutschland]

A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative.

Very strongly disagree. You're essentially saying that a vast majority of libertarians, aren't actually libertarian.

Exactly, if that were the case Libertarians would just be a shill for the Repub. party. But, seeing as their views on
Drugs
Gay Marriage
Gays in the Military
etc
Are antithetical to the Republican agenda...

[The Deleted Chris]

Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

This is a thread asking what people think about Libertarianism. From the way people are being jumped on, it seems like several have misread it as 'state how realistic and desirable Libertarian polices are or get bitchslapped by conceited rightists'. Sure, state your opinions everyone, as long as they're objective i.e. agree with mine!

There's a difference between a constructive definition of a political movement and ideology, and an explanation of why one opposes it, and a typically self-satisfied and abrasive dismissal of anything that a generic leftist disagrees with.

[Ashmoria]

to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.

Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

nope

he asked what does it mean to me and i answered it.

[The Deleted Chris]

"Socially conservative" denoting what? And presumably this is limited to the USA?

"Social conservative" means that they have the same position on civil rights as conservatives, give or take. Libertarians, however, are normally socially liberal and economically conservative.

My thoughts exactly. Generally, in my experience, most libertarians are highly socially liberal. Admittedly, this is based on observation of British libertarians, who tend to be an educated and intelligent group.

[The Deleted Chris]

Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

nope

he asked what does it mean to me and i answered it.

A sad reflection on your character and mental faculties then.

[Northwest Slobovia]

So how would you define "libertarian" then?

Along with "communism", "anarchism", and a few other words, I believe it means "this half-baked idea me and some of my friends have about how after the revolution, everything will be different and perfect and shiny... and everybody will have a flying kitten-unicorn of just the color they want.".

[The Black Forrest]

to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.

Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

Did you even read the op?

[Dumb Ideologies]

This is a thread asking what people think about Libertarianism. From the way people are being jumped on, it seems like several have misread it as 'state how realistic and desirable Libertarian polices are or get bitchslapped by conceited rightists'. Sure, state your opinions everyone, as long as they're objective i.e. agree with mine!

There's a difference between a constructive definition of a political movement and ideology, and an explanation of why one opposes it, and a typically self-satisfied and abrasive dismissal of anything that a generic leftist disagrees with.

Hah. I can hardly imagine you giving a constructive definition of a left-wing ideology. As much as you work to establish that dichotomy, the difference between the two alternatives you put forward is essentially whether you personally agree with the opinion being articulated.

[Ashmoria]

nope

he asked what does it mean to me and i answered it.

A sad reflection on your character and mental faculties then.

yeah im sure.

[Dumb Ideologies]

A sad reflection on your character and mental faculties then.

yeah im sure.

SMUG GENERIC LEFTIST.

See, now I'm being constructive too!

[The Deleted Chris]

There's a difference between a constructive definition of a political movement and ideology, and an explanation of why one opposes it, and a typically self-satisfied and abrasive dismissal of anything that a generic leftist disagrees with.

Hah. I can hardly imagine you giving a constructive definition of a left-wing ideology. As much as you work to establish that dichotomy, the difference between the two alternatives you put forward is essentially whether you personally agree with the opinion being articulated.

Not really, no. It should be perfectly easy for an intelligent person to articulate why they disagree with something without resorting to generalisation, simplification and self-satisfaction.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Hah. I can hardly imagine you giving a constructive definition of a left-wing ideology. As much as you work to establish that dichotomy, the difference between the two alternatives you put forward is essentially whether you personally agree with the opinion being articulated.

Not really, no. It should be perfectly easy for an intelligent person to articulate why they disagree with something without resorting to generalisation, simplification and self-satisfaction.

As with your constant comments about 'smug' and 'generic' leftists. You honestly think you're fit to cast the first stone here

[Ashmoria]

yeah im sure.

SMUG GENERIC LEFTIST.

See, now I'm being constructive too!

lol

it takes one to know one!

[The Deleted Chris]

Not really, no. It should be perfectly easy for an intelligent person to articulate why they disagree with something without resorting to generalisation, simplification and self-satisfaction.

As with your constant comments about 'smug' and 'generic' leftists. You honestly think you're fit to cast the first stone here

Ashmoria started it, and I merely commented on the opinions of he/she/it.

[Meryuma]

Hey, I'm a smug leftist, and I'm a libertarian. However, I'm not exactly a generic leftist...

[Fnordgasm 5]

Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

Not really, no. It should be perfectly easy for an intelligent person to articulate why they disagree with something without resorting to generalisation, simplification and self-satisfaction.

I'm having a little trouble reconciling these two statements. Care to comment?

[Christian Democrats]

Over in the "what does progressive mean to you " thread, I suggested that "libertarian" is turning into a rebranding of "conservative" so that center-right political views can have a chance at appealing to people it would not otherwise - the internet generation. That is by no means the only applicable definition nor is it (in my opinion) the correct one, but that seems to be what's happening with the word 'libertarian.' It prompted the following reply:

1. Libertarianism isn't innately right-wing. Is the Center for a Stateless Society right-wing? Is the Alliance of the Libertarian Left right-wing?
2. Modern libertarianism started in the 60s with Murray Rothbard. It emerged from a mixture of classical liberalism, Austrian economics, and individualist anarchism. It is completely separate from conservatism, with different values, goals, inspirations, and origins.
3. Libertarians are against fundie moralism and war, period. It's not in the terminology, but inherent in libertarian principles, which I must remind you are very different then conservative ones. No libertarians want to impose "family values" through legislation. No libertarians want to
4. Some libertarians ally with conservatives, or hold socially conservative views. Other libertarians ally with traditional leftists and have progressive social views. Modern conservatives (who often bear little resemblance to the classical conservative tradition) usually do.
All in all, I think you deserve the world's biggest facepalm:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/n/na/narf/2010 ... cepalm.jpg

So how would you define "libertarian" then? I'll weigh in momentarily, but first let's hear from you NSG.

CONSERVATIVE supports moral intervention and opposes economic intervention.

PROGRESSIVE/MODERN LIBERAL/SOCIAL DEMOCRAT opposes moral intervention and supports economic intervention.

LIBERTARIAN/CLASSICAL LIBERAL opposes both moral and economic intervention.

COMMUNITARIAN/COLLECTIVIST/STATIST supports both moral and economic intervention.

^ ALL OF THESE CAN BE COMBINED TO FORM DIFFERENT MEANINGS (e.g., a conservative libertarian opposes economic intervention but supports a moderate amount of moral intervention)

POPULIST denotes a movement of the common people and can precede any of these (e.g., populist conservative, populist progressive, populist libertarian); populist by itself usually refers to a communitarian.

[Dumb Ideologies]

As with your constant comments about 'smug' and 'generic' leftists. You honestly think you're fit to cast the first stone here

Ashmoria started it, and I merely commented on the opinions of he/she/it.

Mooooom! I didn't start it!

What actually happened is that people stated their personal opinions as asked, and you came in and made generic comments about all people on the left being smug for stating their disagreement with an ideology.

Go to your room and don't come out till you've thought about what you've done.

[The Deleted Chris]

Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

Not really, no. It should be perfectly easy for an intelligent person to articulate why they disagree with something without resorting to generalisation, simplification and self-satisfaction.

I'm having a little trouble reconciling these two statements. Care to comment?

Perhaps you're just a little bit special?

[The Deleted Chris]

Ashmoria started it, and I merely commented on the opinions of he/she/it.

Mooooom! I didn't start it!

What actually happened is that people stated their personal opinions as asked, and you came in and made generic comments about all people on the left being smug for stating their disagreement with an ideology.

Go to your room and don't come out till you've thought about what you've done.

Oh do grow up. As any number of the British threads here show, it's perfectly possible to have a constructive, informed and intelligent discussion between people of radically divergent opinions without rancour, smugness or abrasiveness.