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What does "Libertarian" mean to you?
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:40 pmby The Congregationists
Over in the "what does progressive mean to you " thread, I suggested that "libertarian" is turning into a rebranding of "conservative" so that center-right political views can have a chance at appealing to people it would not otherwise - the internet generation. That is by no means the only applicable definition nor is it (in my opinion) the correct one, but that seems to be what's happening with the word 'libertarian.' It prompted the following reply:
Meryuma wrote:1.
Libertarianism isn't innately right-wing. Is the Center for a Stateless Society right-wing? Is the Alliance of the Libertarian Left right-wing?
2. Modern
libertarianism started in the 60s with Murray Rothbard. It emerged from a mixture of classical liberalism, Austrian economics, and individualist anarchism. It is completely separate from conservatism, with different values, goals, inspirations, and origins.
3. Libertarians are against fundie moralism and war, period. It's not in the terminology, but inherent in libertarian principles, which I must remind you are very different then conservative ones. No libertarians want to impose "family values" through legislation. No libertarians want to
4. Some libertarians ally with conservatives, or hold socially conservative views. Other libertarians ally with traditional leftists and have progressive social views. Modern conservatives (who often bear little resemblance to the classical conservative tradition) usually do.
All in all, I think you deserve the world's biggest facepalm:
http://pic.phyrefile.com/n/na/narf/2010 ... cepalm.jpg
So how would you define "libertarian" then? I'll weigh in momentarily, but first let's hear from you NSG.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:40 pmby Ashmoria
to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:42 pmby Jakaragua
The problem with capital L Libertarianism is that they don't understand that "fiscal liberty" is a contradiction in philosophy. Laissez-faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor. You cannot be free in a system that forces people to choose wage labor or starvation.
When people talk about being "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative" remember that while it's important to support gay rights, and we shouldn't put people in jail for smoking reefer, most social repression comes from economics anyway. Folks who don't understand that, just don't understand society period.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:44 pmby Meryuma
I'd say that
libertarianism is complete opposition to any form of coercion by others.
Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.
Not all libertarians believe in "small government". Personally, I think that "small government" is for people who are afraid of anarchy or don't know what it is, as well as hypocrites who don't actually want a small government.
Jakaragua wrote:The problem with capital L
Libertarianism is that they don't understand that "fiscal liberty" is a contradiction in philosophy. Laissez-faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor. You cannot be free in a system that forces people to choose wage labor or starvation.
When people talk about being "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative" remember that while it's important to support gay rights, and we shouldn't put people in jail for smoking reefer, most social repression comes from economics anyway. Folks who don't understand that, just don't understand society period.
1. Capital-L
Libertarianism is the Libertarian Party, not the libertarian philosophy, which is actually lowercase-l
libertarianism.
2. Not all libertarians want laissez-faire capitalism. Personally, I think capitalism is sustained through government privilege and would cease to exist without it.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:45 pmby Fnordgasm 5
I always associate it with Anarchism. You know, Proudhon and Bakunin and whatnot..
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:46 pmby The Congregationists
Jakaragua wrote:The problem with capital L
Libertarianism is that they don't understand that "fiscal liberty" is a contradiction in philosophy. Laissez-faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor. You cannot be free in a system that forces people to choose wage labor or starvation.
When people talk about being "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative" remember that while it's important to support gay rights, and we shouldn't put people in jail for smoking reefer, most social repression comes from economics anyway. Folks who don't understand that, just don't understand society period.
Hmmm ... interesting. And very true.
I think you'll find that this statement will not register on either side of the political spectrum these days. The right does not agree with the notion that "laissez faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor" while the left would object to the notion that "most social repression comes from the economics anyway." You are a rare and enlightened, though unfortunately also a dying breed Jakaragua. Good analysis.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:48 pmby Meryuma
Fnordgasm 5 wrote:I always associate it with Anarchism. You know, Proudhon and Bakunin and whatnot..
Oh, I see. You're kickin' it old school.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:49 pmby Fnordgasm 5
Meryuma wrote:Fnordgasm 5 wrote:I always associate it with Anarchism. You know, Proudhon and Bakunin and whatnot..
Oh, I see. You're kickin' it old school.
Yup! That's how I roll!
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:50 pmby Dumb Ideologies
Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:52 pmby Norstal
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
Oh, Glenn Beck then.
Yeah, that's what comes to mind when Libertarian is mentioned. Glenn Beck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck#Viewpoints
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:54 pmby Ashmoria
Norstal wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
Oh, Glenn Beck then.
Yeah, that's what comes to mind when Libertarian is mentioned. Glenn Beck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck#Viewpoints
not the best spokesman for
libertarianism, eh?
the other thing that comes to mind is ultra conservative republicans who are embarrassed by the hash W made of everything so they pretend that they are really libertarians (even though they vote straight republican)
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:54 pmby The Congregationists
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
Though most libertarians are actually amongst the trendy, young and radiacal.
Libertarianism's stronghold is online, hardly a place you'd expect to find "Old homophobic, racist rich white guys." Old homophobic racist rich white guys already have a political label they're rather happy with. "Conservative." Same beliefs on economic issues, perhaps, but very different culture. That's the crux of the matter.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:58 pmby Dumb Ideologies
The Congregationists wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
Though most libertarians are actually amongst the trendy, young and radiacal.
Libertarianism's stronghold is online, hardly a place you'd expect to find "Old homophobic, racist rich white guys." Old homophobic racist rich white guys already have a political label they're rather happy with. "Conservative." Same beliefs on economic issues, perhaps, but very different culture. That's the crux of the matter.
Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement. It's a creaky old ideology dressed up in new clothes in a desperate attempt to appear to differ from the intellectually bankrupt conservatism of the past. The point stands.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:03 pmby Hydesland
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement.
Of the last two-three years perhaps, but of the last 50 or so years before that, absolutely not. Seriously, libertarians used to be pigeon-holed in with 'ultra liberals', say by the likes of fox news, as
crazy radicals that want your kids to do drugs.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:04 pmby Genivar
Anarchist.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:05 pmby The Congregationists
More or less dumb ideologies, but the main issue is one of emphasis. Like I said, a rebranding to appeal to a different socio-cultural cohort. Thus they play down the social conservatism and emphasise the 'small government' angle. They cannot attract youth otherwise. The 'conservative' label lacks credibility because: A) the social side of conservatism has less appeal to the young and B) the term 'conservative' has too many connotations with the Bush years and its association with warmongering and authoritarianism. So the kinds of policies that Reagan ran under, for instance, are rebranded as libertarian.
This happened on the left 20 years ago. Socialism fell out of favor, so that label was dropped in favor of 'progressive' which connoted social and cultural liberalism and downplayed the mixed economy, even though most progressives still sympathised with it.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:06 pmby South Lorenya
How do I define libertarians? I define them as people who believe that the government should have only weak control over both civil freedoms and business freedoms.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:07 pmby Dumb Ideologies
Hydesland wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement.
Of the last two-three years perhaps, but of the last 50 or so years before that, absolutely not. Seriously, libertarians used to be pigeon-holed in with 'ultra liberals', say by the likes of fox news, as
crazy radicals that want your kids to do drugs.
Oi! I'm only answering the chuffing question, ferchrissakes!
The question I answered was what it means to me now...not what it meant before it was popular and before it even came to my attention
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:09 pmby The Deleted Chris
Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.
Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.
You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pmby Dumb Ideologies
The Deleted Chris wrote:Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.
Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.
You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?
This is a thread asking what people think about
Libertarianism. From the way people are being jumped on, it seems like several have misread it as 'state how realistic and desirable Libertarian polices are or get bitchslapped by conceited rightists'. Sure, state your opinions everyone, as long as they're objective i.e. agree with mine!
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pmby Kobeanare
The Congregationists wrote:More or less dumb ideologies, but the main issue is one of emphasis. Like I said, a rebranding to appeal to a different socio-cultural cohort. Thus they play down the social conservatism
Where are people getting the connection between
libertarianism and social conservatism from?
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pmby Fnordgasm 5
The Deleted Chris wrote:Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.
Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award.
You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?
I do not believe petty insults constitute "constructive and objective contribution" either, do you?
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pmby North Suran
Kobeanare wrote:The Congregationists wrote:More or less dumb ideologies, but the main issue is one of emphasis. Like I said, a rebranding to appeal to a different socio-cultural cohort. Thus they play down the social conservatism
Where are people getting the connection between
libertarianism and social conservatism from?
A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:18 pmby Ifreann
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
If I agreed with you any more it would be some kind of copyright violation.
Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:18 pmby Meryuma
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old
homophobic,
racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.
That's what Libertarian means to me.
What the fuck?
Libertarianism is based around complete freedom for everyone, regardless of race or sexual orientation.
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement.
If by that you mean Ron Paul (who's not exactly a shining example of
libertarianism) and Glenn Beck (who isn't a libertarian and doesn't identify as one), then that's still false.
North Suran wrote:A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.
Rand Paul isn't a libertarian. He's a conservatarian abomination.
