Legal Right to die

[Galloism]

You are only and strictly referring to those suffering from depression. What about the people around them? Depression not only affects the sufferer of it but it also affects family (parents, spouse, children) and friends. What about them?

There personal loss, while empathic and arguably real, is not relevant, it's not their life, they have no say in the matter

I'll use a pro-choice argument, Bodily sovereignty argument. What about the fetus? Abortion affects not just the mother, but also the fetus.

The Women cannot be used as an incubator against her will, simply because a fetus cannot survive outside her womb. Just as a person should not be kept alive against there will, simply because people might grieve their loss.

At the end of the day, if a person chooses to leave. The "Survivors" must simply get on with their lives, just as my ex GF must get on with her's (Sorry Alison, you had your chance to have me, but you reject me for another, and I moved on)

Alison?

How odd. That's my new BDSM slave's name.

[GeneralHaNor]

I'm just now catching up to threads, and addressing points individual, regardless of whom they are addressed to, and responses to them

In otherwords, my 2 cents, after Hyper-Inflation.

[GeneralHaNor]

There personal loss, while empathic and arguably real, is not relevant, it's not their life, they have no say in the matter

I'll use a pro-choice argument, Bodily sovereignty argument. What about the fetus? Abortion affects not just the mother, but also the fetus.

The Women cannot be used as an incubator against her will, simply because a fetus cannot survive outside her womb. Just as a person should not be kept alive against there will, simply because people might grieve their loss.

At the end of the day, if a person chooses to leave. The "Survivors" must simply get on with their lives, just as my ex GF must get on with her's (Sorry Alison, you had your chance to have me, but you reject me for another, and I moved on)

Alison?

How odd. That's my new BDSM slave's name.

I hope she's a freak

[Galloism]

Alison?

How odd. That's my new BDSM slave's name.

I hope she's a freak

She is.

[Theodstan]

For those too feeble to actually manage to kill themselves, the state should not oblige them. This is a medical issue, and the tradition of medical practice, worldwide, to which practitioners take the Hippocratic Oath, is to cure or treat conditions. Medicine has not, and should never, be concerned with making the decision on when life ends. Under medical care, life ends as a result of all possible cures or treatment, within feasible paramaters, being exhausted. Life ends when the medic is no longer able to treat them. The medical practitioner does not end life, nor make a decision to end life as a matter of discretion based on mercy, pragmatics or lack of effort.

Have you ever read the Hippocratic Oath? I have.

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Emphasis added. Life is a treatable disease. The cure is death.

Yes, I have read the Hippocratic Oath. What you have quoted there is the Hippocratic Oath according to ONE MAN: Louis Lasagna, who decided to re-write the Hippocratic Oath to suit his own needs in the 60s. Lasagna was, of course, an advocate of euthanasia. Unfortunately, there are some medical colleges (mostly in the US) who have decided to adopt Lasagna's selfish corruption of the original. So it's certainly something to be wary of, the fact that some medical practitioners believe they have been tasked with being arbiters of life or death.

The original oath, translated into English:

"I swear by Apollo the physician and AEsculapius, and Hygiea, and Panacea, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation-- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot. "

As you can see, no mention of swearing to take someone's life, quite the opposite.

[Norstal]

But they said that the treatment would consist of telling the patient to shut the fuck up/lock them up. Well of course that's not gonna work.

No telling YOU the wierdo with the megaphone to shut the fuck up

Well ok Captain Hypothetical.

This is the Hippocratic Oath in its pristine condition for those of you who can handle opposing opinions:

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

This is the modern version:

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help

As you can see, both version advocates the advancement of science. If we kill cancer patients or those who are in depression, we can't advance science because we can't research them. Its freakin obvious. We don't break a machine if it doesn't work, we fix it.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So none of those booths they have from Futurama?

The Suicide Booth is the ultimate triumph of the free market in action, the ability to instantly profit from death.
Ayn Rand would cum in her panties

I had to sig this.

[GeneralHaNor]

The Suicide Booth is the ultimate triumph of the free market in action, the ability to instantly profit from death.
Ayn Rand would cum in her panties

I had to sig this.

I've been sig'd twice this week
Things are really looking up for the Feldmeister

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Well ok Captain Hypothetical.

I seem to remember you starting that particular hypothetical Captain Forgetful.

Hippocratic Snip

Aye and despite Americans having a tendency to get erections for following old documents, etc to the letter I prefer to view things through the lens of medical ethical principles.

As you can see, both version advocates the advancement of science. If we kill cancer patients or those who are in depression, we can't advance science because we can't research them. Its freakin obvious. We don't break a machine if it doesn't work, we fix it.

What a nice viewpoint. That'll be palliative care out the window as well then? Surely you should be aiming to do absolutely everything to cure. Accepting defeat and making it a comfortable death is bad^tm after all. It would be a shame to stop you experimenting on folks

Edit : God I suck at typing tonight

[Theodstan]

No telling YOU the wierdo with the megaphone to shut the fuck up

Well ok Captain Hypothetical.

This is the Hippocratic Oath in its pristine condition for those of you who can handle opposing opinions:

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

This is the modern version:

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help

As you can see, both version advocates the advancement of science. If we kill cancer patients or those who are in depression, we can't advance science because we can't research them. Its freakin obvious. We don't break a machine if it doesn't work, we fix it.

Norstal, the second one ISN'T the modern version, it's the Oath of Lasagna, as it was written by Louis Lasagna in 1964. It isn't the most widely used one worldwide, maybe in America, but then they have to do everything differently, don't they? Most doctors, worldwide, do not swear on any oath stating it is in their power or judgement to take a life.

[Norstal]

Well ok Captain Hypothetical.

I seem to remember you starting that particular hypothetical Captain Forgetful.

Porn.

Aye and despite Americans having a tendency to get erections for following old documents, etc to the letter I prefer to view things through the lens of medical ethical principles.

While we're at it, lets kill AIDS patients because we can't cure them. Its ethically sound.

What a nice viewpoint. That'll be palliative care out the window as well then? Surely you should be aiming to do absolutely everything to cure. Accepting defeat and making it a comfortable death is bad^tm after all. It would be a shame to stop you experimenting on folks

Edit : God I suck at typing tonight

Yes, because fighting depression and cancer is not the Iraq War. Its solvable.

I'll admit though, if an overwhelming number of relatives/friends wants them dead, then sure, they should be given euthanasia. Although I would question whether if something is suspicious or not, but tyranny of the majority is always right.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

While we're at it, lets kill AIDS patients because we can't cure them. Its ethically sound.

Autonomy.

Forgot that?

And sure, should they be end-stage and request it.

Yes, because fighting depression and cancer is not the Iraq War. Its solvable.

You really should share your cancer cure with the world otherwise you're asking to experiment on people against their wishes

[Eireann Fae]

Yes, I have read the Hippocratic Oath. What you have quoted there is the Hippocratic Oath according to ONE MAN: Louis Lasagna, who decided to re-write the Hippocratic Oath to suit his own needs in the 60s. Lasagna was, of course, an advocate of euthanasia. Unfortunately, there are some medical colleges (mostly in the US) who have decided to adopt Lasagna's selfish corruption of the original. So it's certainly something to be wary of, the fact that some medical practitioners believe they have been tasked with being arbiters of life or death.

How contradictory. Just because 'one man' penned it doesn't mean it's not the general rule of law in modern times.

The original oath, translated into English:

"I swear by Apollo the physician and AEsculapius, and Hygiea, and Panacea, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation-- to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others. I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion. With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further, from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves. Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot. "

Pssh, considering the costs of medical school, NOBODY follows this version!

In all seriousness, I do like the poetry and sentiment apparent in the old school Oath, even if I don't agree with it in its entirety. I'm pro-choice, too, after all :p

[Bafuria]

You should have the right to kill yourself.

The government shouldn't let its citizens kill other citizens intentionally under any circumstances, it's far too open to abuse.

[Norstal]

While we're at it, lets kill AIDS patients because we can't cure them. Its ethically sound.

Autonomy.

Forgot that?

You don't have autonomy when you're sick because you're not yourself.

You really should share your cancer cure with the world otherwise you're asking to experiment on people against their wishes

Durr I didn't read his next statement durrr.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

You don't have autonomy when you're sick because you're not yourself.

That'll be an end to any consent issues for docs then. They can do whatever the fuck they like to you once you're sick apparently.

Durr I didn't read his next statement durrr.

Had it been relevant to our debate I would have included it. Unfortunately it was just more rubbish.

[Miklesia]

The right to die is crucial. If a person whose life is hell every day has no other escape or a way to improve the situation, they should be allowed to commit suicide or be euthanized if in a hospital. If I were in a horrific car crash and would be paralyzed and brain-damaged for life, I'd want to be euthanized.

[Galloism]

You don't have autonomy when you're sick because you're not yourself.

Wait-

Are you suggesting that, if you have a cold, which currently isn't curable, you should be subjected to medical experimentation against your will because "you're not yourself"?

Seriously?

[Norstal]

You don't have autonomy when you're sick because you're not yourself.

That'll be an end to any consent issues for docs then. They can do whatever the fuck they like to you once you're sick apparently.

They do have that power.

Had it been relevant to our debate I would have included it. Unfortunately it was just more rubbish.

It is relevant because normal people have friends and families. If someone takes away someone's family member or friend without their consent, that would be bad because they would miss them. That's the reason why we have suicide prevention. Do you not understand that your life is not of your own unless you're a hermit?

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

They do have that power.

According to you they should.

Do you not understand that your life is not of your own unless you're a hermit?

I'm starting to think you're a hermit to think that's the way things work.

Fortunately you're an anonymous internet troll and not a medical professional.

[Eireann Fae]

They do have that power.

:palm:

Do you not understand that your life is not of your own unless you're a hermit?

:palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

Great, now I have a headache ;x

[Galloism]

That'll be an end to any consent issues for docs then. They can do whatever the fuck they like to you once you're sick apparently.

They do have that power.

Had it been relevant to our debate I would have included it. Unfortunately it was just more rubbish.

It is relevant because normal people have friends and families. If someone takes away someone's family member or friend without their consent, that would be bad because they would miss them. That's the reason why we have suicide prevention. Do you not understand that your life is not of your own unless you're a hermit?

There we go. You don't own your own body.

That means that I can't move to Europe or out of state because people would miss me, we don't own even ourselves, and we have no rights.

Thanks for playing.

[Norstal]

You don't have autonomy when you're sick because you're not yourself.

Wait-

Are you suggesting that, if you have a cold, which currently isn't curable, you should be subjected to medical experimentation against your will because "you're not yourself"?

Seriously?

Not in that situation. But should you be subjected to a medical experimentation because you said yes when you have a severe head trauma?

[GeneralHaNor]

They do have that power.




It is relevant because normal people have friends and families. If someone takes away someone's family member or friend without their consent, that would be bad because they would miss them. That's the reason why we have suicide prevention. Do you not understand that your life is not of your own unless you're a hermit?

There we go. You don't own your own body.

Women = incubators

That means that I can't move to Europe or out of state because people would miss me, we don't own even ourselves, and we have no rights.

Thanks for playing.

Fixed for full ramifactions

[Norstal]

Ok since people wants it this way, I will change my opinion effective immediately:

-Doctors don't have the right to cure anyone without their consent first. Nevermind that you need their help, you have to say yes to be cured first.
-You, however, a non-medical professional can cure yourself in any way you want. Including euthanasia.

There, now you all could sleep peacefully.