Legal Right to die

[Bottle]

A tragic consequence of any suicide. I have no experience, of course, with either, but suicide is a fact of life. Last I checked, no one holds a claim over another's body or life in free countries.

However, with regard to loved ones, would you rather go with them and be there in their final content and peaceful moments, or come home to someone with their head missing and a 6-foot diameter blood spot on the wall behind the body?

If you want me to be honest, about the assisted suicide or not of a loved one, I would rather they didn't die. However, I recognize that mental pain is very real and that sometimes, the only way to make it stop is to end it, check out, kill yourself. But I would rather they didn't die. If they choose to, then that is a decision I must respect.

Speaking for myself, I feel pretty much the same way that I would if my family member were suffering from a chronic illness. I know it's selfish, but if (heaven forbid) my mom or my dad were dying of cancer, I wouldn't WANT them to choose to end their life even a second early...because I desperately want to hang on to them, because it will hurt ME so much if they go, and even if I knew it was what they really wanted I still wouldn't WANT it to happen. I would respect it, but I would hate it, because it sucks losing a loved one. It sucks beyond the telling of it.

[Galloism]

In cases of terminal or chronic illness, it's a no-brainer to me: of COURSE everyone should have the right to end their own suffering.

In cases of depression or mental illness, it gets more murky for me. For instance, during a particularly bad bout of drug abuse, I became (briefly) suicidal. I'm very glad that I didn't die. I'm glad my friends prevented me from acting on my suicidal impulses. I know other people who have been suicidal and later were glad that they did not succeed in killing themselves.

But I also have known people who were so determined to die that they continued attempting suicide for (in one case) 10 years. I have known people who genuinely did not experience happiness...the best they got was "not actively trying to kill myself this minute." That kind of pain is every bit as real as any other sort of pain. Their suffering isn't any less real or valid because it's mental. All pain is in the brain, as they say, so what does it matter if the painful stimulus is physical or mental?

This bears pointing out as well. Mental pain is every bit as real as physical. Why do we view it so different?

Most of us wouldn't let anyone commit suicide over a stubbed toe, but we might sympathize if they are in intense incurable chronic pain.

Similarly, we wouldn't want someone to commit suicide over a breakup, but what about intense incurable long-lasting depression?

How is that different?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If you want me to be honest, about the assisted suicide or not of a loved one, I would rather they didn't die. However, I recognize that mental pain is very real and that sometimes, the only way to make it stop is to end it, check out, kill yourself. But I would rather they didn't die. If they choose to, then that is a decision I must respect.

Speaking for myself, I feel pretty much the same way that I would if my family member were suffering from a chronic illness. I know it's selfish, but if (heaven forbid) my mom or my dad were dying of cancer, I wouldn't WANT them to choose to end their life even a second early...because I desperately want to hang on to them, because it will hurt ME so much if they go, and even if I knew it was what they really wanted I still wouldn't WANT it to happen. I would respect it, but I would hate it, because it sucks losing a loved one. It sucks beyond the telling of it.

Yeah, so would I. I would hate it, I would like them to stay with me. And yes, it sounds selfish, when we need them so much that we don't want to let them go. Even after recognizing that that is their choice, not ours.

[Bottle]

In cases of terminal or chronic illness, it's a no-brainer to me: of COURSE everyone should have the right to end their own suffering.

In cases of depression or mental illness, it gets more murky for me. For instance, during a particularly bad bout of drug abuse, I became (briefly) suicidal. I'm very glad that I didn't die. I'm glad my friends prevented me from acting on my suicidal impulses. I know other people who have been suicidal and later were glad that they did not succeed in killing themselves.

But I also have known people who were so determined to die that they continued attempting suicide for (in one case) 10 years. I have known people who genuinely did not experience happiness...the best they got was "not actively trying to kill myself this minute." That kind of pain is every bit as real as any other sort of pain. Their suffering isn't any less real or valid because it's mental. All pain is in the brain, as they say, so what does it matter if the painful stimulus is physical or mental?

This bears pointing out as well. Mental pain is every bit as real as physical. Why do we view it so different?

Most of us wouldn't let anyone commit suicide over a stubbed toe, but we might sympathize if they are in intense incurable chronic pain.

Similarly, we wouldn't want someone to commit suicide over a breakup, but what about intense incurable long-lasting depression?

How is that different?

Good parallels, and well put!

I think that maybe the difference is that it is (at least for now) easier for us to measure "physical pain" than it is to measure "mental pain." For instance, I am comfortable saying that I know it hurts less to stub your toe than it does to have your arm ripped off.

But what about comparing the pain of a break-up to the pain of losing your job? For some people, breaking up might be indescribably painful, while losing their job wouldn't be much of a big deal...for others, the reverse. The "stimulus" isn't as clearly linked with the amount of pain in cases of mental issues, so it is harder for us to feel like we know how much pain somebody else is in when they are talking about emotional pain.

Just a guess, though, I might be off base on this.

[Esternial]

If they feel it is the only solution, people should have to be able to end their life.
This doesn't mean I approve it. Other people (family, friends) are automatically affected by it.

Consequently, I believe it is a selfish solution. Still, it's their choice.

[Bottle]

Speaking for myself, I feel pretty much the same way that I would if my family member were suffering from a chronic illness. I know it's selfish, but if (heaven forbid) my mom or my dad were dying of cancer, I wouldn't WANT them to choose to end their life even a second early...because I desperately want to hang on to them, because it will hurt ME so much if they go, and even if I knew it was what they really wanted I still wouldn't WANT it to happen. I would respect it, but I would hate it, because it sucks losing a loved one. It sucks beyond the telling of it.

Yeah, so would I. I would hate it, I would like them to stay with me. And yes, it sounds selfish, when we need them so much that we don't want to let them go. Even after recognizing that that is their choice, not ours.

A few years ago my mom had to have brain surgery so we had the terrifying "what if stuff goes wrong" talk. It was rough because I've always known that both my parents would ask to be allowed to die rather than remain in a permanent vegetative state, and that they would choose to die if they were left in chronic untreatable pain, but I hadn't realized that my selfish desire to keep my mom around would (emotionally) trump my feelings of respect for her wishes. My feelings were, basically, I don't care how much you are hurting Mommy, I NEED YOU DON'T GO. Which isn't fair or morally right, of course, but I had to be honest that I was feeling that way. I hope that if I ever have to make that choice I will be able to do the right thing, but I know now that it will be much harder than I thought it would be.

[Galloism]

This bears pointing out as well. Mental pain is every bit as real as physical. Why do we view it so different?

Most of us wouldn't let anyone commit suicide over a stubbed toe, but we might sympathize if they are in intense incurable chronic pain.

Similarly, we wouldn't want someone to commit suicide over a breakup, but what about intense incurable long-lasting depression?

How is that different?

Good parallels, and well put!

I think that maybe the difference is that it is (at least for now) easier for us to measure "physical pain" than it is to measure "mental pain." For instance, I am comfortable saying that I know it hurts less to stub your toe than it does to have your arm ripped off.

But what about comparing the pain of a break-up to the pain of losing your job? For some people, breaking up might be indescribably painful, while losing their job wouldn't be much of a big deal...for others, the reverse. The "stimulus" isn't as clearly linked with the amount of pain in cases of mental issues, so it is harder for us to feel like we know how much pain somebody else is in when they are talking about emotional pain.

Just a guess, though, I might be off base on this.

Hmm, I have a different similar theory.

I think it's ignorance. I think it's plain, flat-out, bald ignorance. Those who bandy about such phrases as "permanent solution to a temporary problem" or "suicide is selfish" and such have never truly experienced a long-lasting depression and consequently know nothing about that which they're talking about.

That ignorance spreads like wildfire, and thus, we get what we have.

[Lowell Leber]

Why does wishing to die automatically imply insanity?

because its not something rational people do especially when suicidal thoughts are often linked with the likes of depression

I can think of several rational reasons one would want to end one's own life...

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

I think it's ignorance. I think it's plain, flat-out, bald ignorance. Those who bandy about such phrases as "permanent solution to a temporary problem" or "suicide is selfish" and such have never truly experienced a long-lasting depression and consequently know nothing about that which they're talking about.

Suicide is in the vast vast majority of cases a selfish thing. That's not to say that I view those who attempt or succeed in a negative light. I simply understand that in some cases being selfish is 100% justified.

Although the majority of people who use such phrases do speak from ignorance.

[Serpensa]

This is another interesting point. If a person really wants to kill themselves, they will, but most substances that make it quick and painless are restricted, if not outright banned.

This group of people is already suffering, but we insist on making them suffer more in order to relieve their suffering, when it's totally unnecessary.

Again, monstrous.

You are only and strictly referring to those suffering from depression. What about the people around them? Depression not only affects the sufferer of it but it also affects family (parents, spouse, children) and friends. What about them?

So, because you'll be sad when they're gone, they should stay and suffer? That is incredibly selfish of you. Keeping someone around just because they make you happy when they CLEARLY want to die, is barbaric.

[Galloism]

because its not something rational people do especially when suicidal thoughts are often linked with the likes of depression

I can think of several rational reasons one would want to end one's own life...

Like being forced to take a job as a DJ on the 24-hour Justin Beiber radio station?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You are only and strictly referring to those suffering from depression. What about the people around them? Depression not only affects the sufferer of it but it also affects family (parents, spouse, children) and friends. What about them?

So, because you'll be sad when they're gone, they should stay and suffer? That is incredibly selfish of you. Keeping someone around just because they make you happy when they CLEARLY want to die, is barbaric.

Yes, it is selfish. I want them to live and stay with me, but clearly you missed my original statement when I clearly said that dying is THEIR choice, not mine, and that as much as it may hurt, I have to respect their decision.

viewtopic.php?p=3845805#p3845805

If that is the only solution they see, yes. People should be allow to end their own lives.

Pain, mental pain is very real and overwhelming, and for some, it gets so bad that the only way to stop it is to die. So allow them to go, with dignity.

viewtopic.php?p=3845877#p3845877

If you want me to be honest, about the assisted suicide or not of a loved one, I would rather they didn't die. However, I recognize that mental pain is very real and that sometimes, the only way to make it stop is to end it, check out, kill yourself. But I would rather they didn't die. If they choose to, then that is a decision I must respect.

So, do read the thread before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

[Fartsniffage]

Like being forced to take a job as a DJ on the 24-hour Justin Beiber radio station?

Simply piercing ones own eardrums with a cordless drill would be sufficient in that case.

[Saurisia]

I don't support it.

I personally prefer to die naturally, not killed by some quack doctor.

[Fartsniffage]

I don't support it.

I personally prefer to die naturally, not killed by some quack doctor.

So you would enforce your beliefs on others?

[Galloism]

I don't support it.

I personally prefer to die naturally, not killed by some quack doctor.

I think that would more likely happen on accident than on purpose.

[Fartsniffage]

I think that would more likely happen on accident than on purpose.

"by accident".

Supporting suicide is no reason to kill the English language dear.

[Galloism]

I think that would more likely happen on accident than on purpose.

"by accident".

Supporting suicide is no reason to kill the English language dear.

It comitted suicide when GW took office anyway.

[Juristonia]

All moral objections aside, I think it's absolutely ludicrous that I'm legally not allowed to stop being a living breathing creature.
Whether or not I want to live is a decision only I should be allowed to make based on arguments only I would find relevant.

[Eireann Fae]

So, because you'll be sad when they're gone, they should stay and suffer? That is incredibly selfish of you. Keeping someone around just because they make you happy when they CLEARLY want to die, is barbaric.

Humans generally get all sorts of selfish when other people are the ones dying. Bottle's case is a fine example - she wants to keep people around for her own needs, which would prolong her suffering. People kill other people for their own selfish gains, of course. And even at a funeral, those people aren't sad because someone died, they're sad because they no longer have that person around. The one that died probably isn't feeling any pain, and even most religious types (the types most likely to cry at funerals) generally like to think their loved ones "are in a better place". Why are they crying? Because they lost something.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So, because you'll be sad when they're gone, they should stay and suffer? That is incredibly selfish of you. Keeping someone around just because they make you happy when they CLEARLY want to die, is barbaric.

Humans generally get all sorts of selfish when other people are the ones dying. Bottle's case is a fine example - she wants to keep people around for her own needs, which would prolong her suffering. People kill other people for their own selfish gains, of course. And even at a funeral, those people aren't sad because someone died, they're sad because they no longer have that person around. The one that died probably isn't feeling any pain, and even most religious types (the types most likely to cry at funerals) generally like to think their loved ones "are in a better place". Why are they crying? Because they lost something.

And yet Bottle herself said that she would hate them dying but she would respect it.

viewtopic.php?p=3845904#p3845904

I would respect it, but I would hate it, because it sucks losing a loved one. It sucks beyond the telling of it.

[Eireann Fae]

And yet Bottle herself said that she would hate them dying but she would respect it.

viewtopic.php?p=3845904#p3845904

I would respect it, but I would hate it, because it sucks losing a loved one. It sucks beyond the telling of it.

I know. I was talking about what she wanted, not what she'd end up doing. Selfishness is an emotion, not an action.

[GeneralHaNor]

I feel it should be a process, but in the end I think it should be allowed.

So none of those booths they have from Futurama?

The Suicide Booth is the ultimate triumph of the free market in action, the ability to instantly profit from death.
Ayn Rand would cum in her panties

[GeneralHaNor]

This is another interesting point. If a person really wants to kill themselves, they will, but most substances that make it quick and painless are restricted, if not outright banned.

This group of people is already suffering, but we insist on making them suffer more in order to relieve their suffering, when it's totally unnecessary.

Again, monstrous.

You are only and strictly referring to those suffering from depression. What about the people around them? Depression not only affects the sufferer of it but it also affects family (parents, spouse, children) and friends. What about them?

There personal loss, while empathic and arguably real, is not relevant, it's not their life, they have no say in the matter

I'll use a pro-choice argument, Bodily sovereignty argument. What about the fetus? Abortion affects not just the mother, but also the fetus.

The Women cannot be used as an incubator against her will, simply because a fetus cannot survive outside her womb. Just as a person should not be kept alive against there will, simply because people might grieve their loss.

At the end of the day, if a person chooses to leave. The "Survivors" must simply get on with their lives, just as my ex GF must get on with her's (Sorry Alison, you had your chance to have me, but you rejected me for another, and I moved on)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You are only and strictly referring to those suffering from depression. What about the people around them? Depression not only affects the sufferer of it but it also affects family (parents, spouse, children) and friends. What about them?

There personal loss, while empathic and arguably real, is not relevant, it's not their life, they have no say in the matter

I'll use a pro-choice argument, Bodily sovereignty argument. What about the fetus? Abortion affects not just the mother, but also the fetus.

The Women cannot be used as an incubator against her will, simply because a fetus cannot survive outside her womb. Just as a person should not be kept alive against there will, simply because people might grieve their loss.

At the end of the day, if a person chooses to leave. The "Survivors" must simply get on with their lives, just as my ex GF must get on with her's (Sorry Alison, you had your chance to have me, but you reject me for another, and I moved on)

My original post and response to Galloism..