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On the notion that why homosexuality occurs "doesn't matter"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:52 am

Unhealthy2 wrote:
UCUMAY wrote:Ambi


No such thing. You must either be left handed or right handed. Since being right handed is objectively righteous, all "ambis" are really just left handers faking it.

some girls go lefthanded in college but its just a phase.
whatever

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Unhealthy2
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Postby Unhealthy2 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:01 am

Ashmoria wrote:some girls go lefthanded in college but its just a phase.


They're just experimenting with things they shouldn't because they're being exposed to the evil lies of the educated liberal elite.

Also, everyone knows that it's only really bad when a guy is left-handed. When girls are, it's not good, but it's kinda hot, so it's okay.
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:03 am

Unhealthy2 wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:some girls go lefthanded in college but its just a phase.


They're just experimenting with things they shouldn't because they're being exposed to the evil lies of the educated liberal elite.

Also, everyone knows that it's only really bad when a guy is left-handed. When girls are, it's not good, but it's kinda hot, so it's okay.

lol

for sure. everyone loves a lefthanded girl.
whatever

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Disco Tetris
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Postby Disco Tetris » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:05 am

The whole nature vs. nurture debate is irritating because of the motivations behind it for many people. Instead of being about the lives and actions of two consenting adults, it becomes, "Oh well, I guess since it isn't your fault, I'll accept you." The subtext being, "It must be traumatising not be normal, I bet if you had the chance you'd be straight." But I guess in our world, half-hearted acceptance is better than no acceptance. That isn't to say scientifically it isn't an interesting subject.

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ARM Forces
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it's a tarp!!!

Postby ARM Forces » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:12 am

Looks like you guys are having a fun time here, but how about I join the discussion with the belief that people are NOT born homosexual? Then you'll have somebody to debate against.

First off, I've completely given up on using cultural history as an argument. Homosexuality was classified as a mental disease in America until Dr. Kinsey released a falsified report that a huge number of Americans were homosexuals, so they changed it. So the classification change was based on a lie.

At the same time, people used to think that using your left hand was wrong (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:) My sister was also left-handed and she learned to be ambi, but that doesn't mean the teacher harassed her about it. She just thought it would be a cool thing to be able to do. Now she can write both forward and backward with both hands, it makes a good conversation starter for her in her literature circles.

BUT! Not getting off track here!

Here is a true story that I like to use to make my point:

When I was working at Safeway, bagging groceries, one day a woman came through the line with a little girl sitting in the cart. The girl had a miserable look on her face, and looked a bit under the weather. When the checker reached a box of frozen popsicles, she leaned down and asked the little girl, "Oh, are these for you?"

"Yes," the mother answered. "She has strep throat, so I'm getting her those to soothe her throat."

I was appalled. "Are you serious?" I burst out a bit more harshly than I should have. "Strep-throat is an infection in the throat, caused by eating too much refined sugar! Rubbing more sugar directly on it is the worst thing you can possibly do."

They all stopped short. The checker looked uneasy; she'd never heard of that, but was more concerned that I was being rude. The mother looked shocked; she considered it for a moment but to my surprise she glared at me in anger. Then there was the little girl. I've never seen such a look of pure poison on the face of a little person. She was miserable, and she deserved those popsicles, and it was okay to hate me because I was trying to take them away from her.

I didn't help anybody that day, because I was too stupid about how I said it. But I learned something about people: we'd rather believe what's NICE instead of what's right. When you want to find the truth in a clouded issue, look at the two options and decide which one the most people would find fundamentally nicer. The other one is probably correct, otherwise there couldn't be such a big debate between the two.

The idea that obesity is a bad choice is very unpleasant, so obesity is an "epidemic." Smoking used to be "nice," but when people were dying left and right from it public opinion finally made it "non-nice." You can still find people online saying that smoking isn't bad for your health, because the idea that they are killing themselves is too much for them to handle.

Finally, in a society that is becoming more and more driven by desiring things and feeling good, the idea that homosexuals have a mental illness is so unpleasant people are abandoning the truth for a nice lie.

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Unhealthy2
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Postby Unhealthy2 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:17 am

ARM Forces wrote:Finally, in a society that is becoming more and more driven by desiring things and feeling good, the idea that homosexuals have a mental illness is so unpleasant people are abandoning the truth for a nice lie.


Except:

1) Your metric is inexact.

2) Those other things are issues of fact rather than opinion. Whether or not homosexuality is an illness is not really something that can be "true" or "false," considering that illness is a subjective and poorly-defined notion.
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Der Teutoniker
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Postby Der Teutoniker » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:17 am

ARM Forces wrote:Here is a true story that I like to use to make my point:


This story in no way reinforces your opinion that gay people aren't born gay.

Like really, not at all.

Edit: and Strep isn't caused by refined sugar. it's a bacteria.

learn2learn.
Last edited by Der Teutoniker on Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ARM Forces wrote:Strep-throat is an infection in the throat, caused by eating too much refined sugar! Rubbing more sugar directly on it is the worst thing you can possibly do.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:17 am

ARM Forces wrote: (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:)


I have heard firsthand testimonies that contradict this. Though admittedly it was Britain, not the USA.
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Helertia
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Postby Helertia » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:18 am

ARM Forces wrote:Looks like you guys are having a fun time here, but how about I join the discussion with the belief that people are NOT born homosexual? Then you'll have somebody to debate against.

First off, I've completely given up on using cultural history as an argument. Homosexuality was classified as a mental disease in America until Dr. Kinsey released a falsified report that a huge number of Americans were homosexuals, so they changed it. So the classification change was based on a lie.

At the same time, people used to think that using your left hand was wrong (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:) My sister was also left-handed and she learned to be ambi, but that doesn't mean the teacher harassed her about it. She just thought it would be a cool thing to be able to do. Now she can write both forward and backward with both hands, it makes a good conversation starter for her in her literature circles.

BUT! Not getting off track here!

Here is a true story that I like to use to make my point:

When I was working at Safeway, bagging groceries, one day a woman came through the line with a little girl sitting in the cart. The girl had a miserable look on her face, and looked a bit under the weather. When the checker reached a box of frozen popsicles, she leaned down and asked the little girl, "Oh, are these for you?"

"Yes," the mother answered. "She has strep throat, so I'm getting her those to soothe her throat."

I was appalled. "Are you serious?" I burst out a bit more harshly than I should have. "Strep-throat is an infection in the throat, caused by eating too much refined sugar! Rubbing more sugar directly on it is the worst thing you can possibly do."

They all stopped short. The checker looked uneasy; she'd never heard of that, but was more concerned that I was being rude. The mother looked shocked; she considered it for a moment but to my surprise she glared at me in anger. Then there was the little girl. I've never seen such a look of pure poison on the face of a little person. She was miserable, and she deserved those popsicles, and it was okay to hate me because I was trying to take them away from her.

I didn't help anybody that day, because I was too stupid about how I said it. But I learned something about people: we'd rather believe what's NICE instead of what's right. When you want to find the truth in a clouded issue, look at the two options and decide which one the most people would find fundamentally nicer. The other one is probably correct, otherwise there couldn't be such a big debate between the two.

The idea that obesity is a bad choice is very unpleasant, so obesity is an "epidemic." Smoking used to be "nice," but when people were dying left and right from it public opinion finally made it "non-nice." You can still find people online saying that smoking isn't bad for your health, because the idea that they are killing themselves is too much for them to handle.

Finally, in a society that is becoming more and more driven by desiring things and feeling good, the idea that homosexuals have a mental illness is so unpleasant people are abandoning the truth for a nice lie.


Or maybe they're abandoning a myth for a scientifically supported truth. Reluctantly abandoning it, at that.
Also, you don't seem to have provided any argument for homosexuals being mentally ill, just an argument for why people may gloss over it - if it were true, which it isn't.
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:20 am

ARM Forces wrote:Looks like you guys are having a fun time here, but how about I join the discussion with the belief that people are NOT born homosexual? Then you'll have somebody to debate against.


it doesnt matter. if gay people are perfectly capable of having a loving sexual relationship with opposite sex partners but choose instead to have relationships with same sex partners ITS OK.

it wont give you strep throat or make you fat.
whatever

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:21 am

ARM Forces wrote: Finally, in a society that is becoming more and more driven by desiring things and feeling good, the idea that homosexuals have a mental illness is so unpleasant people are abandoning the truth for a nice lie.

even if it were a mental illness ITS STILL OK because it is harmless to the people involved and to society at large.
whatever

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The Norwegian Blue
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Postby The Norwegian Blue » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:22 am

ARM Forces wrote:Looks like you guys are having a fun time here, but how about I join the discussion with the belief that people are NOT born homosexual? Then you'll have somebody to debate against.

First off, I've completely given up on using cultural history as an argument. Homosexuality was classified as a mental disease in America until Dr. Kinsey released a falsified report that a huge number of Americans were homosexuals, so they changed it. So the classification change was based on a lie.

At the same time, people used to think that using your left hand was wrong (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:) My sister was also left-handed and she learned to be ambi, but that doesn't mean the teacher harassed her about it. She just thought it would be a cool thing to be able to do. Now she can write both forward and backward with both hands, it makes a good conversation starter for her in her literature circles.

BUT! Not getting off track here!

Here is a true story that I like to use to make my point:

When I was working at Safeway, bagging groceries, one day a woman came through the line with a little girl sitting in the cart. The girl had a miserable look on her face, and looked a bit under the weather. When the checker reached a box of frozen popsicles, she leaned down and asked the little girl, "Oh, are these for you?"

"Yes," the mother answered. "She has strep throat, so I'm getting her those to soothe her throat."

I was appalled. "Are you serious?" I burst out a bit more harshly than I should have. "Strep-throat is an infection in the throat, caused by eating too much refined sugar! Rubbing more sugar directly on it is the worst thing you can possibly do."

They all stopped short. The checker looked uneasy; she'd never heard of that, but was more concerned that I was being rude. The mother looked shocked; she considered it for a moment but to my surprise she glared at me in anger. Then there was the little girl. I've never seen such a look of pure poison on the face of a little person. She was miserable, and she deserved those popsicles, and it was okay to hate me because I was trying to take them away from her.

I didn't help anybody that day, because I was too stupid about how I said it. But I learned something about people: we'd rather believe what's NICE instead of what's right. When you want to find the truth in a clouded issue, look at the two options and decide which one the most people would find fundamentally nicer. The other one is probably correct, otherwise there couldn't be such a big debate between the two.

The idea that obesity is a bad choice is very unpleasant, so obesity is an "epidemic." Smoking used to be "nice," but when people were dying left and right from it public opinion finally made it "non-nice." You can still find people online saying that smoking isn't bad for your health, because the idea that they are killing themselves is too much for them to handle.

Finally, in a society that is becoming more and more driven by desiring things and feeling good, the idea that homosexuals have a mental illness is so unpleasant people are abandoning the truth for a nice lie.


This post is fantastic.

Just...seriously, you just argued that people refuse to believe your unsubstantiated "truth" in favor of a scientifically supported "lie," and as proof of how dumb other people are, you just told us that strep throat is caused by eating sugar.

You can't make this shit up.
Last edited by The Norwegian Blue on Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pesda » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:30 am

ARM Forces wrote:At the same time, people used to think that using your left hand was wrong (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:) My sister was also left-handed and she learned to be ambi, but that doesn't mean the teacher harassed her about it. She just thought it would be a cool thing to be able to do. Now she can write both forward and backward with both hands, it makes a good conversation starter for her in her literature circles.


Can she write with both at the same time?
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Postby Eireann Fae » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:32 am

Pesda wrote:
ARM Forces wrote:At the same time, people used to think that using your left hand was wrong (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:) My sister was also left-handed and she learned to be ambi, but that doesn't mean the teacher harassed her about it. She just thought it would be a cool thing to be able to do. Now she can write both forward and backward with both hands, it makes a good conversation starter for her in her literature circles.


Can she write with both at the same time?


It wouldn't be a unique talent. There was a guy that could write greek with one hand and latin with the other, simultaneously.

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Postby Pesda » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:35 am

Eireann Fae wrote:
Pesda wrote:
Can she write with both at the same time?


It wouldn't be a unique talent. There was a guy that could write greek with one hand and latin with the other, simultaneously.

:clap:
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Pesda wrote:Alchohol has a funny taste
So does semen.
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thats cool i like ireland
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Pesda wrote:Making someone happy.

I advise lubricant if that's your objective. Or spit.
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Helertia
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Postby Helertia » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:36 am

Eireann Fae wrote:
Pesda wrote:
Can she write with both at the same time?


It wouldn't be a unique talent. There was a guy that could write greek with one hand and latin with the other, simultaneously.


President somethinbg or other.
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Postby Pesda » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:42 am

ARM Forces wrote:Looks like you guys are having a fun time here, but how about I join the discussion with the belief that people are NOT born homosexual? Then you'll have somebody to debate against.

First off, I've completely given up on using cultural history as an argument. Homosexuality was classified as a mental disease in America until Dr. Kinsey released a falsified report that a huge number of Americans were homosexuals, so they changed it. So the classification change was based on a lie.
At the same time, people used to think that using your left hand was wrong (although you guys have your dates a bit wrong there, you're thinking Victorian Britain. They didn't slap kids' hands in America in the fifties :roll:) My sister was also left-handed and she learned to be ambi, but that doesn't mean the teacher harassed her about it. She just thought it would be a cool thing to be able to do. Now she can write both forward and backward with both hands, it makes a good conversation starter for her in her literature circles.

BUT! Not getting off track here!

Here is a true story that I like to use to make my point:

When I was working at Safeway, bagging groceries, one day a woman came through the line with a little girl sitting in the cart. The girl had a miserable look on her face, and looked a bit under the weather. When the checker reached a box of frozen popsicles, she leaned down and asked the little girl, "Oh, are these for you?"

"Yes," the mother answered. "She has strep throat, so I'm getting her those to soothe her throat."

I was appalled. "Are you serious?" I burst out a bit more harshly than I should have. "Strep-throat is an infection in the throat, caused by eating too much refined sugar! Rubbing more sugar directly on it is the worst thing you can possibly do."

They all stopped short. The checker looked uneasy; she'd never heard of that, but was more concerned that I was being rude. The mother looked shocked; she considered it for a moment but to my surprise she glared at me in anger. Then there was the little girl. I've never seen such a look of pure poison on the face of a little person. She was miserable, and she deserved those popsicles, and it was okay to hate me because I was trying to take them away from her.

I didn't help anybody that day, because I was too stupid about how I said it. But I learned something about people: we'd rather believe what's NICE instead of what's right. When you want to find the truth in a clouded issue, look at the two options and decide which one the most people would find fundamentally nicer. The other one is probably correct, otherwise there couldn't be such a big debate between the two.

The idea that obesity is a bad choice is very unpleasant, so obesity is an "epidemic." Smoking used to be "nice," but when people were dying left and right from it public opinion finally made it "non-nice." You can still find people online saying that smoking isn't bad for your health, because the idea that they are killing themselves is too much for them to handle.

Finally, in a society that is becoming more and more driven by desiring things and feeling good, the idea that homosexuals have a mental illness is so unpleasant people are abandoning the truth for a nice lie.


So if you are correct, that homosexuality is a condition that grows upon you during your life, and becomes an 'illness', how does it change things? It would still be OK.
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So does semen.
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thats cool i like ireland
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Green Ham wrote:
Pesda wrote:Making someone happy.

I advise lubricant if that's your objective. Or spit.
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Eireann Fae
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Postby Eireann Fae » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:01 am

Helertia wrote:
Eireann Fae wrote:
It wouldn't be a unique talent. There was a guy that could write greek with one hand and latin with the other, simultaneously.


President somethinbg or other.


Yeah, I have a feeling it was a founding father, and started to say so in the post, but I wasn't sure. Whoever he was, it was damn cool :p

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ARM Forces
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Point.

Postby ARM Forces » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:08 am

Wow, looks like my point was made better than I expected.

This thread isn't about whether people are born homosexual. It's about why people CARE. I'm saying that many people believe that you can be born gay because they WANT to believe it, and it has nothing to do with evidence. The things people want to believe gain standing in society without being backed by science.

The fact that you guys are mocking me for my refined sugar comment is the perfect proof of this. It's been known in the medical community for decades that refined sugar is bad for the body. Sugar cane and similar plants contain large amounts of basic sugar, as well as magnesium, zinc, and 9 other minerals that aid in the digestion of this sugar (the body uses them to make insulin). The refinement process removes these minerals to produce pure sugar, and when people eat refined sugar it leeches the required digestion minerals from their bodies. People who continue this process for too long lose the ability to produce their own insulin and become diabetic.

Bacteria eat basic sugars, which are normally only found in the intestinal tract AFTER it's been digested. However, when people eat lots of refined sugar, it becomes more available in the bloodstream and the bacteria grows faster than the immune system can kill it off. That's called an infection.

Holy crap, haven't you guys heard about Whole Grain cereals? I'm not making this shit up!

This is something that was discovered by the scientific community in the 1970's. There is ample experimental data and research to say that refined sugar helps cause the vast majority of medical complications we face today. Now, are you going to stop eating sugar? Heck, I know all this and I still eat sugar! Because the alternative is too unpleasant to handle. And if a proven fact can be ignored, the truth about homosexuality certainly can be.

EDIT: oh yeah, and my sister writes her notes back and forth: one line forward then one line backward. That way she never has to lift her hand off the page. :lol2:
Last edited by ARM Forces on Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Bleeding Roses » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:10 am

If you know the cause of something you can cure it.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:15 am

The Bleeding Roses wrote:If you know the cause of something you can cure it.


Not always true. But let us pretend it is nevertheless.

Then the question becomes if curing it is good or not.

Perhaps scientists will find a cure for homosexuality. How nice. But should people take it ?
Or hey - perhaps scientists will find a cure for preferring one gender over another. How nice. But should people take it ?

Perhaps scientists will find a cure for lefthandedness. How nice. But should people take it ?
Or hey - perhaps scientists will find a cure for righthandedness. So left could become the norm. How nice. But should people take it ?

Perhaps scientists will find a cure for believing in God. How nice. But should people take it ?
Perhaps scientists will find a cure for not believing in Thor. How nice. But should people take it ?

Perhaps scientists will find a cure for the gene that causes superpower mutations. How nice. But should people take it ?
Oh wait, sorry. That was that movie ;)
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Helertia
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Postby Helertia » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:16 am

The Bleeding Roses wrote:If you know the cause of something you can cure it.


And why on earth would you want to cure it? Actually, no, I know perfectly well why you would want to cure it. Why would the normal, non-bigoted human beings that make up the majority of Western countries want to cure it?
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Eireann Fae
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Postby Eireann Fae » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:22 am

The Alma Mater wrote:Perhaps scientists will find a cure for believing in God. How nice. But should people take it ?


I wouldn't dream of forcing such a thing on anyone, but I bloody wish they would!

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ARM Forces
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Application

Postby ARM Forces » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:45 am

Eireann Fae wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Perhaps scientists will find a cure for believing in God. How nice. But should people take it ?


I wouldn't dream of forcing such a thing on anyone, but I bloody wish they would!


Let me apply my method to this, then. Which do you think goes on more in the world:

1. People decide that it's nicer to believe a god exists, or
2. People decide that it's nicer to believe a god doesn't exist.

I personally think 2 happens more often, so I believe that there is a god. Simple enough. So just humor me, then, and tell me which one do you think would happen more often?

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Eireann Fae
Minister
 
Posts: 3422
Founded: Oct 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Eireann Fae » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:50 am

ARM Forces wrote:Let me apply my method to this, then. Which do you think goes on more in the world:

1. People decide that it's nicer to believe a god exists, or
2. People decide that it's nicer to believe a god doesn't exist.

I personally think 2 happens more often, so I believe that there is a god. Simple enough. So just humor me, then, and tell me which one do you think would happen more often?


I think peoples' personal opinions are irrelevant. There is no evidence for an ideal Judeo-Christian deity to exist, and no way to test the hypothesis. Scientifically speaking, there is no God.

But on a personal note (believe my own opinion to be as relevant as you wish ;-), I think the notion that "more people believe it, so it must be false" is a pretty shitty argument.

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