Can atheists go to Heaven?

[Grave_n_idle]

Arguably, it's not just the infliction of harm - but the deliberate infliction of harm, while aware of the harm and what it means.

A cat could be loosely argued as 'torturing' a mouse, but it's arguably not actually causing deliberate harm, with an awareness of the pain the mouse feels. It's just practising hunting instincts.

Seems reasonable.
Does that mean that an animal with rudimentary intelligence, capable of empathy, can torture ?
Dolphins and several great apes seem to qualify.

Personally - yes, I would say that some other mammals (for example) may well be capable of torture. I certainly believe that some apes and dolphins, for example, are capable of rape as a concept.

[Nazistisches Reich]

Seems reasonable.
Does that mean that an animal with rudimentary intelligence, capable of empathy, can torture ?
Dolphins and several great apes seem to qualify.

I disagree, mere intelligence is not enough. You need the "divine" nature as well.

So apes that have been proven to show empathy and compassion like a gorilla female who protected a little boy from a male gorilla when he fell into the cage? You telling me that female gorilla did not show empathy to the little boy because she didnt have a divine nature or heritage? The story isnt made up either it was on the news a while ago

[Grave_n_idle]

Seems reasonable.
Does that mean that an animal with rudimentary intelligence, capable of empathy, can torture ?
Dolphins and several great apes seem to qualify.

I disagree, mere intelligence is not enough. You need the "divine" nature as well.

And you can disprove the divine nature of the dolphin? Or prove the divine nature of the human?

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I think that is your fallacy. We are NOT animals just like everything else. Sure, when compared to vegetables and minerals, we are animals, but we have a divine heritage. We are higher beings.

how do we have a divine heritage? Are you referring from the storys of the bible? Because if so thats a weak point for argueing we have a divine heritage. Also we are animals, when you get sexually aroused what do you do? You go and mate like other animals do. When you get hungry you go ad get food like other animals do. Some guy starts messing with your female what do you do, you go and confront him because thats your female just like how animals do. Someone breaks into you house are you going to be mad? Yes because thats your territory just like how other animals are. We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims. Yet evidence of being related to animals is all aroudn you. Not to mention are DNA is very similiar to apes.

1. When I get aroused, I dont go mate with the first female I see, I establish a relationship, marry and then have sex. (Different then the animals)
2. When I get hungry, I do eat like other animals do, but I treat them with respect and do not torture or waste them (Different from animals)
3. When some guy messes with my wife, I try to reason first, then if necessary defend, but use only the force necessary to make them stop ( Different then the animals)
4. When someone breaks into my house, yes I am mad.

This is called humanity. We are different than the lower animals because of this Humanity.

[New Kereptica]

1. When I get aroused, I dont go mate with the first female I see, I establish a relationship, marry and then have sex. (Different then the animals)
2. When I get hungry, I do eat like other animals do, but I treat them with respect and do not torture or waste them (Different from animals)
3. When some guy messes with my wife, I try to reason first, then if necessary defend, but use only the force necessary to make them stop ( Different then the animals)
4. When someone breaks into my house, yes I am mad.

Animals do all of these. The only difference between humans and any other animal is in the sophistication of our cognitive abilities.

[Grave_n_idle]

how do we have a divine heritage? Are you referring from the storys of the bible? Because if so thats a weak point for argueing we have a divine heritage. Also we are animals, when you get sexually aroused what do you do? You go and mate like other animals do. When you get hungry you go ad get food like other animals do. Some guy starts messing with your female what do you do, you go and confront him because thats your female just like how animals do. Someone breaks into you house are you going to be mad? Yes because thats your territory just like how other animals are. We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims. Yet evidence of being related to animals is all aroudn you. Not to mention are DNA is very similiar to apes.

1. When I get aroused, I dont go mate with the first female I see, I establish a relationship, marry and then have sex. (Different then the animals)
2. When I get hungry, I do eat like other animals do, but I treat them with respect and do not torture or waste them (Different from animals)
3. When some guy messes with my wife, I try to reason first, then if necessary defend, but use only the force necessary to make them stop ( Different then the animals)
4. When someone breaks into my house, yes I am mad.

This is called humanity. We are different than the lower animals because of this Humanity.

Not all animals behave as you suggest.. and not all humans refrain from behaving so.

By your logic, some animals are divine, and some humans aren't.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

1. When I get aroused, I dont go mate with the first female I see, I establish a relationship, marry and then have sex. (Different then the animals)
2. When I get hungry, I do eat like other animals do, but I treat them with respect and do not torture or waste them (Different from animals)
3. When some guy messes with my wife, I try to reason first, then if necessary defend, but use only the force necessary to make them stop ( Different then the animals)
4. When someone breaks into my house, yes I am mad.

This is called humanity. We are different than the lower animals because of this Humanity.

Not all animals behave as you suggest.. and not all humans refrain from behaving so.

By your logic, some animals are divine, and some humans aren't.

I realize that animals do these things too.... I was merely attempting to show NR a contrast to his "We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims." I was pointing out that we have "Humanity" which makes us rise above the lower forms.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I disagree, mere intelligence is not enough. You need the "divine" nature as well.

And you can disprove the divine nature of the dolphin? Or prove the divine nature of the human?

This thread is a religious thread, therefore by design, proof is not required. My sources are religious in nature.

[New Kereptica]

I was pointing out that we have "Humanity" which makes us rise above the lower forms.

But we don't.

[Grave_n_idle]

Not all animals behave as you suggest.. and not all humans refrain from behaving so.

By your logic, some animals are divine, and some humans aren't.

I realize that animals do these things too.... I was merely attempting to show NR a contrast to his "We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims." I was pointing out that we have "Humanity" which makes us rise above the lower forms.

Except your claim isn't supported by your evidence - so you do nothing to rebut your opponent's claim. No?

[Nazistisches Reich]

how do we have a divine heritage? Are you referring from the storys of the bible? Because if so thats a weak point for argueing we have a divine heritage. Also we are animals, when you get sexually aroused what do you do? You go and mate like other animals do. When you get hungry you go ad get food like other animals do. Some guy starts messing with your female what do you do, you go and confront him because thats your female just like how animals do. Someone breaks into you house are you going to be mad? Yes because thats your territory just like how other animals are. We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims. Yet evidence of being related to animals is all aroudn you. Not to mention are DNA is very similiar to apes.

1. When I get aroused, I dont go mate with the first female I see, I establish a relationship, marry and then have sex. (Different then the animals)
2. When I get hungry, I do eat like other animals do, but I treat them with respect and do not torture or waste them (Different from animals)
3. When some guy messes with my wife, I try to reason first, then if necessary defend, but use only the force necessary to make them stop ( Different then the animals)
4. When someone breaks into my house, yes I am mad.

This is called humanity. We are different than the lower animals because of this Humanity.

Well the family thing is due to the fact that back then when babys heads were getting bigger they had to stay longer in the womens womb and so the male had to stay with the female longer. This evolved into the "Love" and "Family" we see today. Not to mention love has been found to be a chemical reaction in the bain, not some soul our spirit. And the attraction you felt for yor wife was due ot her giving off pheremones which your body picked up and registered in the brain hence making you feel attracted to your wife.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I was pointing out that we have "Humanity" which makes us rise above the lower forms.

But we don't.

We dont have humanity or we dont rise above?

[Grave_n_idle]

And you can disprove the divine nature of the dolphin? Or prove the divine nature of the human?

This thread is a religious thread, therefore by design, proof is not required. My sources are religious in nature.

By which token, rats are similarly divine, although it relies on different scripture. And, of course, octopi - due to their resemblance to one of the Old Gods, are arguably the most divine of all.

No?

[Leepaidamba]

We don't have humanity, we make it up. Humanity comes with realization comes with intelligence comes with evolution. Or so I think.

[Grave_n_idle]

But we don't.

We dont have humanity or we dont rise above?

By your checklist of humanity - we simply don't all have it.

Similarly, by your own markers, not all animals lack it.

Which means we neither universally 'have it' NOR do we universally 'rise above' anything. By your own measures.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I realize that animals do these things too.... I was merely attempting to show NR a contrast to his "We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims." I was pointing out that we have "Humanity" which makes us rise above the lower forms.

Except your claim isn't supported by your evidence - so you do nothing to rebut your opponent's claim. No?

I thought I did. he said that we humans act in the same way animals do in certain situations, thereby making us no better then them. I gave examples where "normal" people in fact DO NOT act like animals, thereby making us "better" than the animals.

[Kaninov]

NO! he made the people, and let them live their lives....even if they were evil they WILL pay for it in the afterlife....and life IS a test....whoever wants to take the easy way out is always the one who fails....

Works for me.



Satan sounds like a downright nice guy.

this just Proves that God Is Badass and Can Kick anybody's ass anyday of the week. Dont F***K with God.

[Nazistisches Reich]

And you can disprove the divine nature of the dolphin? Or prove the divine nature of the human?

This thread is a religious thread, therefore by design, proof is not required. My sources are religious in nature.

religous in nature eh? Well let me tell you somthing about debating/ When you debate you have to bring forth evidence for your claims or else they are useless. You need proof not matter what it is your saying/ You can prove were divine in nature when DNA tests have proven our DNA is similiar to apes yet theres no way to test our bodys and detect a divine nature in us or a soul.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

This thread is a religious thread, therefore by design, proof is not required. My sources are religious in nature.

By which token, rats are similarly divine, although it relies on different scripture. And, of course, octopi - due to their resemblance to one of the Old Gods, are arguably the most divine of all.

No?

I can see that point. However, we are the only beings that are the literal sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father. We do know that lower animals have souls and will be with Father in the afterlife. We also have been given dominion and stewardship over the animals.

[Grave_n_idle]

Except your claim isn't supported by your evidence - so you do nothing to rebut your opponent's claim. No?

I thought I did. he said that we humans act in the same way animals do in certain situations, thereby making us no better then them. I gave examples where "normal" people in fact DO NOT act like animals, thereby making us "better" than the animals.

Except you didn't do that. You gave some examples where SOME people might act differently to SOME (other) animals - and then claimed that partial overlap as evidence of the difference in divinity of the humans and (other) animals.

[New Kereptica]

No?

No. Octopi are divine because they carry the legacy of Oobu.

[Grave_n_idle]

By which token, rats are similarly divine, although it relies on different scripture. And, of course, octopi - due to their resemblance to one of the Old Gods, are arguably the most divine of all.

No?

I can see that point. However, we are the only beings that are the literal sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father. We do know that lower animals have souls and will be with Father in the afterlife. We also have been given dominion and stewardship over the animals.

We do not KNOW that we are "the only beings that are the literal sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father". That's your belief, sure - but belief doesn't make it fact.

Moreover, if you read your scripture - the Hebrew text talks about multiple gods (although many of the references are obscure) - so there's simply no way, even within the confines of Abrahamic religion, of ruling out other entities as being divine incarnations.

[Nazistisches Reich]

Except your claim isn't supported by your evidence - so you do nothing to rebut your opponent's claim. No?

I thought I did. he said that we humans act in the same way animals do in certain situations, thereby making us no better then them. I gave examples where "normal" people in fact DO NOT act like animals, thereby making us "better" than the animals.

So some people who are born with no emotions, or psychopaths as they are called do not have divine heritage in them? I mean they can kill or do anything without even caring and so should we say they are not divine even thogh the were born that way?

[Leepaidamba]

I can see that point. However, we are the only beings that are the literal sons and daughters of a Heavenly Father. We do know that lower animals have souls and will be with Father in the afterlife. We also have been given dominion and stewardship over the animals.

When taking the Bible literally of course.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

This thread is a religious thread, therefore by design, proof is not required. My sources are religious in nature.

religous in nature eh? Well let me tell you somthing about debating/ When you debate you have to bring forth evidence for your claims or else they are useless. You need proof not matter what it is your saying/ You can prove were divine in nature when DNA tests have proven our DNA is similiar to apes yet theres no way to test our bodys and detect a divine nature in us or a soul.

As I said, this is a religious thread, so my "evidence" or proof comes from religious material.

BTW, just because our DNA is similar to APES does not mean we dont have a divine nature. Did it ever occur to you that DNA is what causes us to look the way we do, and function the way we do. The fact that we have 2 arms, forward facing eyeballs, etc comes from the DNA. The DNA is the way of passing those traits along. They are the basic building blocks of life pertaining to who we are and what we look like.

Because we look like God, our forms basically came first. Other forms were then altered to fit their needs.