Can atheists go to Heaven?

[The Alma Mater]

Hmmm - are you saying God did not design nature to be as cruel as it is, or that nature is not cruel at all - it is just that it seems cruel in our eyes because we antropomorphy it ?

Nature is not cruel. We see it as cruel because we project the human experience on the animal kingdom. (if that is what antropomorphy is then yeah)

It is Intruiging viewpoint - I shall mull it over

Does that mean I *can* kill kittens like my sig says btw ? And kick puppies ?

[Nazistisches Reich]

So ThoseWho AreGood, your telling me back in the ages of early man like the Neanderthals, your telling me they didnt kill each other over food? Also have you been completely absent of whts happened in the past from religous people? Exploration of america and slaughter of native americans and mesoamericans which happened from religous people. Salem witch trials, innocent people were burned for being a witch yet no evidence was brought forth to prove it. Also look at the crusades, people were slaughtered beleiving they were doing gods will by trying to take over jerusalem. We are not holy and divine as you say because like animals killing is what we do as well.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

Nature is not cruel. We see it as cruel because we project the human experience on the animal kingdom. (if that is what antropomorphy is then yeah)

It is Intruiging viewpoint - I shall mull it over

Does that mean I *can* kill kittens like my sig says btw ? And kick puppies ?

No, we are stewards of all lower life forms. We may use them as we see fit ( food, clothing, beasts of burden, pets), but we may not torture them.

[Nazistisches Reich]

It is Intruiging viewpoint - I shall mull it over

Does that mean I *can* kill kittens like my sig says btw ? And kick puppies ?

No, we are stewards of all lower life forms. We may use them as we see fit ( food, clothing, beasts of burden, pets), but we may not torture them.

Could you answer my question above this post

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

So ThoseWho AreGood, your telling me back in the ages of early man like the Neanderthals, your telling me they didnt kill each other over food? Also have you been completely absent of whts happened in the past from religous people? Exploration of america and slaughter of native americans and mesoamericans which happened from religous people. Salem witch trials, innocent people were burned for being a witch yet no evidence was brought forth to prove it. Also look at the crusades, people were slaughtered beleiving they were doing gods will by trying to take over jerusalem. We are not holy and divine as you say because like animals killing is what we do as well.

1. I do not agree that early "man" had the "divine" nature that we have now.
2. Because those things happened in the past does not make it right.
3. There, as you have demonstrated, have been many cruelties that man has done to man in the name of religion. I said we have a divine nature (at least a divine heritage). Most of these things were done in the name of MONEY or CONTROL, not in the name of God.

[The Alma Mater]

It is Intruiging viewpoint - I shall mull it over

Does that mean I *can* kill kittens like my sig says btw ? And kick puppies ?

No, we are stewards of all lower life forms. We may use them as we see fit ( food, clothing, beasts of burden, pets), but we may not torture them.

But do not need to stop them when they torture eachother ?
*mulls on*

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

No, we are stewards of all lower life forms. We may use them as we see fit ( food, clothing, beasts of burden, pets), but we may not torture them.

But do not need to stop them when they torture eachother ?
*mulls on*

No. I dont believe it is torture. For example, a cat catches a mouse and plays with it before killing it. Torture, no. Nature's way, yes.

[Nazistisches Reich]

So ThoseWho AreGood, your telling me back in the ages of early man like the Neanderthals, your telling me they didnt kill each other over food? Also have you been completely absent of whts happened in the past from religous people? Exploration of america and slaughter of native americans and mesoamericans which happened from religous people. Salem witch trials, innocent people were burned for being a witch yet no evidence was brought forth to prove it. Also look at the crusades, people were slaughtered beleiving they were doing gods will by trying to take over jerusalem. We are not holy and divine as you say because like animals killing is what we do as well.

1. I do not agree that early "man" had the "divine" nature that we have now.
2. Because those things happened in the past does not make it right.
3. There, as you have demonstrated, have been many cruelties that man has done to man in the name of religion. I said we have a divine nature (at least a divine heritage). Most of these things were done in the name of MONEY or CONTROL, not in the name of God.

Well why didnt early man have the divine nature? Surely god was talking to them wasnt he? Oh wait he didnt talk to them because they barely had a language right? So god just let them be untill they evolved more right? Yes those things in the past are horrible but alot of people doing those actions firmly beleived they were ok in gods eyes. And for a loving peaceful god Im surprised he would make killing essential to survival.

[New Kereptica]

No. I dont believe it is torture. For example, a cat catches a mouse and plays with it before killing it. Torture, no. Nature's way, yes.

What is torture, then?

[Nazistisches Reich]

But do not need to stop them when they torture eachother ?
*mulls on*

No. I dont believe it is torture. For example, a cat catches a mouse and plays with it before killing it. Torture, no. Nature's way, yes.

so your saying thats not torture but if I captured a cat and played with it and then killed it what makes that different? Were animals just like everything else on this earth

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

No. I dont believe it is torture. For example, a cat catches a mouse and plays with it before killing it. Torture, no. Nature's way, yes.

What is torture, then?

In my understanding humans torturing animals would be akin to kicking your dog, catapulting your cat, deliberate dog fighting, etc.

[New Kereptica]

In my understanding humans torturing animals would be akin to kicking your dog, catapulting your cat, deliberate dog fighting, etc.

Examples.

But what is torture?

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

No. I dont believe it is torture. For example, a cat catches a mouse and plays with it before killing it. Torture, no. Nature's way, yes.

so your saying thats not torture but if I captured a cat and played with it and then killed it what makes that different? Were animals just like everything else on this earth

I think that is your fallacy. We are NOT animals just like everything else. Sure, when compared to vegetables and minerals, we are animals, but we have a divine heritage. We are higher beings.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

In my understanding humans torturing animals would be akin to kicking your dog, catapulting your cat, deliberate dog fighting, etc.

Examples.

But what is torture?

I would say causing any undue suffering.

[Grave_n_idle]

No. I dont believe it is torture. For example, a cat catches a mouse and plays with it before killing it. Torture, no. Nature's way, yes.

What is torture, then?

Arguably, it's not just the infliction of harm - but the deliberate infliction of harm, while aware of the harm and what it means.

A cat could be loosely argued as 'torturing' a mouse, but it's arguably not actually causing deliberate harm, with an awareness of the pain the mouse feels. It's just practising hunting instincts.

[The Alma Mater]

so your saying thats not torture but if I captured a cat and played with it and then killed it what makes that different? Were animals just like everything else on this earth

I think that is your fallacy. We are NOT animals just like everything else. Sure, when compared to vegetables and minerals, we are animals, but we have a divine heritage. We are higher beings.

Why do bacteria disagree ?

[New Kereptica]

I would say causing any undue suffering.

Deliberately?

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

What is torture, then?

Arguably, it's not just the infliction of harm - but the deliberate infliction of harm, while aware of the harm and what it means.

A cat could be loosely argued as 'torturing' a mouse, but it's arguably not actually causing deliberate harm, with an awareness of the pain the mouse feels. It's just practising hunting instincts.

Yes, better said then my response.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I think that is your fallacy. We are NOT animals just like everything else. Sure, when compared to vegetables and minerals, we are animals, but we have a divine heritage. We are higher beings.

Why do bacteria disagree ?

I do not understand the question. Bacteria are the lowest forms of live (as far as I know).

[The Alma Mater]

What is torture, then?

Arguably, it's not just the infliction of harm - but the deliberate infliction of harm, while aware of the harm and what it means.

A cat could be loosely argued as 'torturing' a mouse, but it's arguably not actually causing deliberate harm, with an awareness of the pain the mouse feels. It's just practising hunting instincts.

Seems reasonable.
Does that mean that an animal with rudimentary intelligence, capable of empathy, can torture ?
Dolphins and several great apes seem to qualify.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I would say causing any undue suffering.

Deliberately?

Yeah. I think you would need to put Deliberately in there as well.

[Nazistisches Reich]

so your saying thats not torture but if I captured a cat and played with it and then killed it what makes that different? Were animals just like everything else on this earth

I think that is your fallacy. We are NOT animals just like everything else. Sure, when compared to vegetables and minerals, we are animals, but we have a divine heritage. We are higher beings.

how do we have a divine heritage? Are you referring from the storys of the bible? Because if so thats a weak point for argueing we have a divine heritage. Also we are animals, when you get sexually aroused what do you do? You go and mate like other animals do. When you get hungry you go ad get food like other animals do. Some guy starts messing with your female what do you do, you go and confront him because thats your female just like how animals do. Someone breaks into you house are you going to be mad? Yes because thats your territory just like how other animals are. We are very very common to animals versus bing divine which some book that has no proof its storys claims. Yet evidence of being related to animals is all aroudn you. Not to mention are DNA is very similiar to apes.

[The Alma Mater]

Why do bacteria disagree ?

I do not understand the question. Bacteria are the lowest forms of live (as far as I know).

True. But they do not consider us different from animals.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

Arguably, it's not just the infliction of harm - but the deliberate infliction of harm, while aware of the harm and what it means.

A cat could be loosely argued as 'torturing' a mouse, but it's arguably not actually causing deliberate harm, with an awareness of the pain the mouse feels. It's just practising hunting instincts.

Seems reasonable.
Does that mean that an animal with rudimentary intelligence, capable of empathy, can torture ?
Dolphins and several great apes seem to qualify.

I disagree, mere intelligence is not enough. You need the "divine" nature as well.

[ThoseWhoAreGood]

I do not understand the question. Bacteria are the lowest forms of live (as far as I know).

True. But they do not consider us different from animals.

They affect us in ways that are similar to the lower life forms because we have fallible and mortal bodies. That does not make us any less divine.