Why Is Sex Still Considered Dirty/Perverted/Shameful?

[Kobeanare]

Multiple simultaneous children/multiple simultaneous partners, I'd imagine. I'd also say there's absolutely nothing wrong with any form of consensual non-monogamy.

One thing, though. You've mentioned several times in this thread that you ask your prospective partners if they've been tested, and that this is a good way to avoid getting an STI. How exactly can you trust their answers? Most infected guys would lie, I'd imagine.

I don't fuck people I don't trust.

So exactly whom do you fuck? Long-time friends? That methodology's always seemed weird to me; too much room for awkwardness if it ends and/or one of you falls for the other but it's not mutual.

This would also render your claim that STIs are easy to avoid simply by asking your prospective partner if they've been tested moot for those who fuck people less well-known to them.

[Bottle]

I don't fuck people I don't trust.

So exactly whom do you fuck? Long-time friends? That methodology's always seemed weird to me; too much room for awkwardness if it ends and/or one of you falls for the other but it's not mutual.

Pretty much, yeah.

It's worked fine for me. I'm still good friends with many of my past lovers. Some of us have lost touch over the years, but I'd be delighted to go out to lunch or whatever with any of them.

This would also render your claim that STIs are easy to avoid simply by asking your prospective partner if they've been tested moot for those who fuck people less well-known to them.

If I was arguing that asking your partner is the only STD-prevention method, then you'd have a point.

Happily, there are plenty of other options. You can ask to see their test results. You can go with them and get tested together (I've actually done that with lots of friends, including people I wasn't fucking or hoping to fuck). If you choose to fuck people you can't trust, or who you don't know very well, then you'll need to figure out what you DO trust to protect you from STDs.

STDs are easy to avoid if you don't fuck anybody who has an STD, that's all I've been saying. If you choose to fuck people without finding out if they have STDs, then it really doesn't matter if you're dating them or married to them or anything else...marrying them isn't going to magically make them less likely to infect you with whatever they've got.

[Killbrawn]

Ah, we, uh, killed these arguments two to three pages ago. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that hasn't been delivered yet to support:
1) that promiscuity is, in fact, irresponsible;
2) how high the risk of out of wedlock pregnancies due to promiscuity is;
3) what an optimal family setting is (and do note that it being two parents has been disproven);
4) how high the risk of contracting STI's is; and
5) that there are no means to reduce these risks to a negligible level.

By now it should be pretty obvious that we're all going to interpret the evidence given differently. I find promiscuity irresponsible because I consider the chance of getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock and possibly not being able to provide the best environment for the child or contracting an STI to not be worth the risk. Even though the risk can be lessened with modern technology, that relatively small chance of either of those happening is too large of a chance considering the stakes. You were correct about a lot of the optimal family stuff, however you failed to account for the fact that extended families are becoming less common nowadays and thus single mothers are less likely to have access to a family network to help raise the child.

I also never made the assumption that no one walked around naked did so. However I'm pretty sure that most of the people on here are not part of nudist colonies.

Oh yeah btw Bottle, if you haven't read my previous post yet, I just wanted to clarify that #9 wasn't meant to sound aggressive, I was just pointing out my lack of skill with this forum's formatting tools.

[Kobeanare]

So exactly whom do you fuck? Long-time friends? That methodology's always seemed weird to me; too much room for awkwardness if it ends and/or one of you falls for the other but it's not mutual.

Pretty much, yeah.

It's worked fine for me. I'm still good friends with many of my past lovers. Some of us have lost touch over the years, but I'd be delighted to go out to lunch or whatever with any of them.

How the hell does that work? I've never been in that situation myself, but I can't fathom how it would work out that way. I know another woman who basically selects her fuck-buddies the same way, and that did not end well.

If I was arguing that asking your partner is the only STD-prevention method, then you'd have a point.

You weren't, but you seemed to be treating it as pretty foolproof. Do you use condoms as well, or are test results your sole protection?

[Laerod]

Ah, we, uh, killed these arguments two to three pages ago. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that hasn't been delivered yet to support:
1) that promiscuity is, in fact, irresponsible;
2) how high the risk of out of wedlock pregnancies due to promiscuity is;
3) what an optimal family setting is (and do note that it being two parents has been disproven);
4) how high the risk of contracting STI's is; and
5) that there are no means to reduce these risks to a negligible level.

By now it should be pretty obvious that we're all going to interpret the evidence given differently. I find promiscuity irresponsible because I consider the chance of getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock and possibly not being able to provide the best environment for the child or contracting an STI to not be worth the risk. Even though the risk can be lessened with modern technology, that relatively small chance of either of those happening is too large of a chance considering the stakes. You were correct about a lot of the optimal family stuff, however you failed to account for the fact that extended families are becoming less common nowadays and thus single mothers are less likely to have access to a family network to help raise the child.

No, actually according to the sources someone brought forth in an attempt to support similar arguments you're using showed that one parent households do not statistically significantly impact a child's chances compared to healthy marriages. It's divorces that do.
What you're basically putting forward has been chewed up already. The "optimal environment" argument lacks the support you'd need to base judgement on it.
And how high, pray tell, are these risks?

[Old Erisia]

I'm sure bottle uses condoms. >_>

And some of us do manage to stay friends with past lovers, or have a casual lay with our friends without destroying our relationship.

[Bottle]

Pretty much, yeah.

It's worked fine for me. I'm still good friends with many of my past lovers. Some of us have lost touch over the years, but I'd be delighted to go out to lunch or whatever with any of them.

How the hell does that work? I've never been in that situation myself, but I can't fathom how it would work out that way. I know another woman who basically selects her fuck-buddies the same way, and that did not end well.

I don't know how to answer this. From my perspective, you are asking how I can keep being friends with people who are my friends...to me, it's obvious that of course I'd still be friends with them. Why wouldn't I? Why would sex stop us from being friends?

You weren't, but you seemed to be treating it as pretty foolproof. Do you use condoms as well, or are test results your sole protection?

I've always used condoms, and I still do even with my long-term partner. I also was on the Pill for a very long time, and only recently stopped taking it because of an unrelated medical issue.

[Kobeanare]

How the hell does that work? I've never been in that situation myself, but I can't fathom how it would work out that way. I know another woman who basically selects her fuck-buddies the same way, and that did not end well.

I don't know how to answer this. From my perspective, you are asking how I can keep being friends with people who are my friends...to me, it's obvious that of course I'd still be friends with them. Why wouldn't I? Why would sex stop us from being friends?

I just don't see a way for that sort of thing to end that isn't awkward. The one situation under these parameters with which I'm reasonably familiar backs up that hypothesis.

You weren't, but you seemed to be treating it as pretty foolproof. Do you use condoms as well, or are test results your sole protection?

I've always used condoms, and I still do even with my long-term partner.[/quote]
You're just no fun. If you're both clean, why bother?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't know how to answer this. From my perspective, you are asking how I can keep being friends with people who are my friends...to me, it's obvious that of course I'd still be friends with them. Why wouldn't I? Why would sex stop us from being friends?

He's probably amazed and confused that you can remain friends with some of your past lovers. Many people cannot do that, perhaps he included.

[Bottle]

I don't know how to answer this. From my perspective, you are asking how I can keep being friends with people who are my friends...to me, it's obvious that of course I'd still be friends with them. Why wouldn't I? Why would sex stop us from being friends?

I just don't see a way for that sort of thing to end that isn't awkward. The one situation under these parameters with which I'm reasonably familiar backs up that hypothesis.

What answer are you looking for? I mean, I don't understand what you're expecting me to say, here. I don't stop liking somebody just because we had sex. I don't stop wanting to be friends with them after we have sex. I also don't instantly fall in love with them, nor do I fuck people who I think are at risk of falling in love due to sex (because yikes), nor do I consider it awkward to be around somebody after we've had sex. The closest I've ever come to awkwardness was being at the wedding of a friend and having someone notice that I'd had sex with both the bride and the groom at different points...and that was really only awkward because we were seated at the same table as the groom's parents.

You're just no fun. If you're both clean, why bother?

I don't fuck people who think safe sex isn't fun.

[Bottle]

I don't know how to answer this. From my perspective, you are asking how I can keep being friends with people who are my friends...to me, it's obvious that of course I'd still be friends with them. Why wouldn't I? Why would sex stop us from being friends?

He's probably amazed and confused that you can remain friends with some of your past lovers. Many people cannot do that, perhaps he included.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I know lots of other people (maybe most people?) can't stay friends with their past lovers, I just don't get WHY people conduct themselves that way.

Of course, I've only ever had one boyfriend my whole life, because I view relationships as pretty serious and I don't enter them simply because I'm sexually attracted to somebody, so I know I am rather "backwards" compared to most people in my society. They think a relationship should come before sex; I think it would be completely inappropriate, verging on dishonest, for me to enter a relationship without having had sex first.

[Killbrawn]

Um Laerod, I'm aware of that source. I had already looked at it. That's why I was agreeing with you that the optimal family is often misunderstood as any family with two parents.

[Eireann Fae]

I just don't see a way for that sort of thing to end that isn't awkward. The one situation under these parameters with which I'm reasonably familiar backs up that hypothesis.

There you go, showing off your qualms about sex again. Not everyone is so uptight.

You're just no fun. If you're both clean, why bother?

She doesn't want to contract a parasite :)

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

He's probably amazed and confused that you can remain friends with some of your past lovers. Many people cannot do that, perhaps he included.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I know lots of other people (maybe most people?) can't stay friends with their past lovers, I just don't get WHY people conduct themselves that way.

I've tried. It never worked. Sooner or later one of us would say something to really hurt the other and I would find that the friendship was not worthwhile.

Of course, I've only ever had one boyfriend my whole life, because I view relationships as pretty serious and I don't enter them simply because I'm sexually attracted to somebody, so I know I am rather "backwards" compared to most people in my society. They think a relationship should come before sex; I think it would be completely inappropriate, verging on dishonest, for me to enter a relationship without having had sex first.

Backwards? Why? That's just the approach you take when considering entering a relationship. *shrug*
Perhaps we all should take that approach. It could maybe save a lot of time invested if it's then found out that the relationship wasn't worthwhile to begin with. I don't know, I don't even know if I have a certain 'modus operandi' at the time of courtship. All my relationship beginnings have been so different... Not saying yours aren't, though.

[Laerod]

Um Laerod, I'm aware of that source. I had already looked at it. That's why I was agreeing with you that the optimal family is often misunderstood as any family with two parents.

So how is your complaint about not being able to provide an optimal environment for the potential offspring relevant then? And how likely is it? I'm still waiting for statistics on how high the risks are.

[Bottle]

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I know lots of other people (maybe most people?) can't stay friends with their past lovers, I just don't get WHY people conduct themselves that way.

I've tried. It never worked. Sooner or later one of us would say something to really hurt the other and I would find that the friendship was not worthwhile.

I suppose it also depends on how much contact you continue to have after you hook up. I mean, probably half of my past lovers are people I stopped sleeping with and hanging out with purely because one or both of us moved away and we lost touch, so we never really got the chance to piss each other off. Since we parted on good terms, I'd be happy to see them again...but maybe if we'd never parted, we would have eventually ruined our friendship.

[Eireann Fae]

It could maybe save a lot of time invested if it's then found out that the relationship wasn't worthwhile to begin with.

You can't have a loving relationship with someone if the sex isn't good? My condolences...

[Lauchlin]

I am friends with all of my exes. I get invited to their weddings and over for barbecues. I've also slept with a lot of people who were "just friends" and remained friends.

I don't really get why that's hard to understand either.

[Lauchlin]

It could maybe save a lot of time invested if it's then found out that the relationship wasn't worthwhile to begin with.

You can't have a loving relationship with someone if the sex isn't good? My condolences...

You can't have a sexual relationship with someone if the sex isn't good. Condolences probably aren't necessary.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It could maybe save a lot of time invested if it's then found out that the relationship wasn't worthwhile to begin with.

You can't have a loving relationship with someone if the sex isn't good? My condolences...

Condolences for what exactly?

[Kobeanare]

I don't fuck people who think safe sex isn't fun.

Fun, sure. As fun as 'unsafe' (for lack of a better term) sex? Not really.

I just don't get WHY people conduct themselves that way.

Isn't that pretty much akin to asking why people sneeze when they get evil spirits inside them dust in their nose?

Let's say, hypothetically, we're sleeping together. Then, you decide that it's really not something you want to do anymore. I'm meant to be perfectly cool with, rather than bothered by, that? I'd imagine there'd be some resentment toward whomever you happened to decide was a better lay than myself, too. Which, again, wouldn't exactly help our friendship.

[Eireann Fae]

You can't have a loving relationship with someone if the sex isn't good? My condolences...

You can't have a sexual relationship with someone if the sex isn't good. Condolences probably aren't necessary.

I guess I don't consider sex to be that important a part of a relationship. Surely I'm not alone :o

[Bottle]

I am friends with all of my exes. I get invited to their weddings and over for barbecues. I've also slept with a lot of people who were "just friends" and remained friends.

I don't really get why that's hard to understand either.

I can certainly understand why SOMETIMES such relationships wouldn't work out. But, then again, sometimes friendships don't work out, in general. Everyone is different, so it really depends on who you choose to be friends with and who you choose to sleep with. I've had plenty of friends I didn't sleep with, including some who I definitely find attractive, and even a couple who have clearly returned the feelings of attraction; sometimes I know it's just not a good idea to sleep with somebody because of how they tend to react to sexual experiences, and because I think it WOULD be harmful to our friendship. It wouldn't be fair of me to sleep with somebody if I knew they were likely to then want a relationship, if I knew that I wasn't going to be interested in having a relationship.

[Eireann Fae]

Let's say, hypothetically, we're sleeping together. Then, you decide that it's really not something you want to do anymore. I'm meant to be perfectly cool with, rather than bothered by, that? I'd imagine there'd be some resentment toward whomever you happened to decide was a better lay than myself, too. Which, again, wouldn't exactly help our friendship.

Once you pop you can't stop, is that what you're saying? Get over yourself :p

[Lauchlin]

You can't have a sexual relationship with someone if the sex isn't good. Condolences probably aren't necessary.

I guess I don't consider sex to be that important a part of a relationship. Surely I'm not alone

As far as I'm concerned, a "romantic relationship" is not a relationship of that type without some kind of sexual contact. You can be in a no-sex-before-marriage relationship, but if there's no sexual attraction you're just really good friends.

But that's just my opinion, and is not binding.