My Friend is Pondering Suicide...

[Parthenon]

Hate to say it but if he really wanted to off himself he would already be dead, seems to just be looking for attention. My answer? Let him do what he wants. Getting involved will just make you feel guilty if it turns out wrong.

This is an excellent example of why one shouldn't listen to the advice of ignorant people. They don't know what the hell they are talking about.

They may also be callous jerks.

EDIT: From the National Insitute of Mental Health:

Most suicide attempts are expressions of extreme distress, not harmless bids for attention. A person who appears suicidal should not be left alone and needs immediate mental-health treatment.

I expected more from someone of your stature. A petty flame and a wrongly quoted source does much to diminish any reputation you have here and should probably be avoided in subsequent postings...

There has not been a suicide attempt, those take resolve. If the kid was to try killing himself and failed (which is quite pathetic) it would obviously require professional help. That isn't being disputed by me or anyone else in the thread. However, making mention of suicide, openly, to ones peers is just a tactic to garner sympathy and see reactions. Hell, I was drunk one evening a few years ago and messaged an old friend on aim something along the lines of "No one would miss me if I was dead" just to see how fucking awesome I am. Its an attention seeking behavior, nothing more, nothing less.

[Saint Clair Island]

He sounds like a whining little shit. Fifteen years old, threatening nonexistence over a girl? Pathetic. Worthless. Perhaps he should carry out this threat and relieve reality of his stain.

Its fascinating that, no matter how much callous dickishness you see on-line, you can always find a new example right around the corner.

You mean we shouldn't euthanize all the mentally ill people just because they're clearly not being a benefit to society?

[Fennijer]

Eh. Back when I was regularly thinking of/attempting suicide, I appreciated the "you probably just want attention, otherwise you'd go through with it already" attitude more than the "noooo, don't do it, your life is worth something!" attitude. Largely because it matched my own thoughts better, and I could feel as though I wasn't really mentally ill, -- since a mentally ill person would have killed themselves already -- and thus had hope for improvement. Of course, that was me, and other people would probably benefit from a different approach.

Depression and suicidal threats are not always due to a mental illness. People can become depressed through a number of reasons. Is the person who commits suicide because they were raped or lost their job mentally ill? No, they are experiencing depression due to legitimate reasons. I am not suggesting that mental illness is not a legitimate reason, but I am suggesting that you should not slap the label of 'mentally ill' on someone who expresses the feeling of futility.

[Saint Clair Island]

Eh. Back when I was regularly thinking of/attempting suicide, I appreciated the "you probably just want attention, otherwise you'd go through with it already" attitude more than the "noooo, don't do it, your life is worth something!" attitude. Largely because it matched my own thoughts better, and I could feel as though I wasn't really mentally ill, -- since a mentally ill person would have killed themselves already -- and thus had hope for improvement. Of course, that was me, and other people would probably benefit from a different approach.

Depression and suicidal threats are not always due to a mental illness. People can become depressed through a number of reasons. Is the person who commits suicide because they were raped or lost their job mentally ill? No, they are experiencing depression due to legitimate reasons. I am not suggesting that mental illness is not a legitimate reason, but I am suggesting that you should not slap the label of 'mentally ill' on someone who expresses the feeling of futility.

Well, where do you draw the line between "legitimate reasons" and illegitimate reasons? And how long does a legitimate depression get to last before it has to be classed as a mental illness instead?

[The Cat-Tribe]

Eh. Back when I was regularly thinking of/attempting suicide, I appreciated the "you probably just want attention, otherwise you'd go through with it already" attitude more than the "noooo, don't do it, your life is worth something!" attitude. Largely because it matched my own thoughts better, and I could feel as though I wasn't really mentally ill, -- since a mentally ill person would have killed themselves already -- and thus had hope for improvement. Of course, that was me, and other people would probably benefit from a different approach.

Depression and suicidal threats are not always due to a mental illness. People can become depressed through a number of reasons. Is the person who commits suicide because they were raped or lost their job mentally ill? No, they are experiencing depression due to legitimate reasons. I am not suggesting that mental illness is not a legitimate reason, but I am suggesting that you should not slap the label of 'mentally ill' on someone who expresses the feeling of futility.

1. More than 90% of those who commit suicide suffer from depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). And suicidal thoughts are a major symptom of mental illnesses. So the connection is not spurious.

2. Don't confuse "feeling sad" or "feeling futile" with clinical depression and/or suicidal ideation.

[The Cat-Tribe]

Hate to say it but if he really wanted to off himself he would already be dead, seems to just be looking for attention. My answer? Let him do what he wants. Getting involved will just make you feel guilty if it turns out wrong.

This is an excellent example of why one shouldn't listen to the advice of ignorant people. They don't know what the hell they are talking about.

They may also be callous jerks.

EDIT: From the National Insitute of Mental Health:

Most suicide attempts are expressions of extreme distress, not harmless bids for attention. A person who appears suicidal should not be left alone and needs immediate mental-health treatment.

I expected more from someone of your stature. A petty flame and a wrongly quoted source does much to diminish any reputation you have here and should probably be avoided in subsequent postings...

There has not been a suicide attempt, those take resolve. If the kid was to try killing himself and failed (which is quite pathetic) it would obviously require professional help. That isn't being disputed by me or anyone else in the thread. However, making mention of suicide, openly, to ones peers is just a tactic to garner sympathy and see reactions. Hell, I was drunk one evening a few years ago and messaged an old friend on aim something along the lines of "No one would miss me if I was dead" just to see how fucking awesome I am. Its an attention seeking behavior, nothing more, nothing less.

You have displayed callous disregard for others and exteme ignorance in your "advice."

I humbly suggest you shut the fuck up.

Regardless, I have a friend I need to help that did try to commit suicide a few days ago. I won't waste more time here.

[Smunkeeville]

Eh. Back when I was regularly thinking of/attempting suicide, I appreciated the "you probably just want attention, otherwise you'd go through with it already" attitude more than the "noooo, don't do it, your life is worth something!" attitude. Largely because it matched my own thoughts better, and I could feel as though I wasn't really mentally ill, -- since a mentally ill person would have killed themselves already -- and thus had hope for improvement. Of course, that was me, and other people would probably benefit from a different approach.

Depression and suicidal threats are not always due to a mental illness. People can become depressed through a number of reasons. Is the person who commits suicide because they were raped or lost their job mentally ill? No, they are experiencing depression due to legitimate reasons. I am not suggesting that mental illness is not a legitimate reason, but I am suggesting that you should not slap the label of 'mentally ill' on someone who expresses the feeling of futility.

Well, where do you draw the line between "legitimate reasons" and illegitimate reasons? And how long does a legitimate depression get to last before it has to be classed as a mental illness instead?

There is a thing called situational depression (my father died, my wife left me, my company shut down, my children are sick) and a thing called clinical depression (my brain chemicals are out of whack and it causes me distress), both need treatment when they begin to affect your daily life and relationships adversely. Some people can live with depression for many years before the effects begin to be known to their families, usually after a suicide attempt that seems sudden. Others have a more steep spiral and feeling themselves sliding down they seek out help....and are ignored, berated, told to quit being a drama queen, or made to feel like nobody cares about them, and then they commit suicide.

Sometimes you can't help people, other times you can. When you can you should.

[Saint Clair Island]

There is a thing called situational depression (my father died, my wife left me, my company shut down, my children are sick) and a thing called clinical depression (my brain chemicals are out of whack and it causes me distress), both need treatment when they begin to affect your daily life and relationships adversely.

If situational depression is a normal reaction to problems, for how long must it affect one's life adversely before treatment is required? Or do you prefer to imagine that people should start getting treatment as soon as the situational depression becomes obvious (e.g. the day after the funeral?)

[Fennijer]

Well, where do you draw the line between "legitimate reasons" and illegitimate reasons? And how long does a legitimate depression get to last before it has to be classed as a mental illness instead?

I was trained to deal with each case on its own individuality. Bearing in mind that I worked with adults with varying degrees of learning difficulties, debilitative illnesses and physical disabilities, I have seen my fair share of 'suidice attempts/threats'.

Just because one person may qualify for one method of action, it does not mean that all cases should be treated the same. This is why the sensible people in this conversation are urging for 'professional help' wheras others are saying unhelpful things like... give him alcohol, or 'ignore him, he is seeking attention'.

I am no doctor or mental health expert, but I AM better qualified/experienced than the average joe in this area.

[Smunkeeville]

There is a thing called situational depression (my father died, my wife left me, my company shut down, my children are sick) and a thing called clinical depression (my brain chemicals are out of whack and it causes me distress), both need treatment when they begin to affect your daily life and relationships adversely.

If situational depression is a normal reaction to problems, for how long must it affect one's life adversely before treatment is required? Or do you prefer to imagine that people should start getting treatment as soon as the situational depression becomes obvious (e.g. the day after the funeral?)

The general guideline is when it starts affecting their daily activities or relationships, although some people may want to seek help before that point. There is a generic amount of time for grieving, but "being sad" isn't the same as being depressed. Feelings of hopelessness or thoughts of hurting yourself are definite signs that it's time to seek professional help. Changes in how you care for yourself (eating less, eating more, sleeping less, sleeping more, grooming less, grooming more, hanging out less with friends, obsessing over things, using drugs, food or alcohol to comfort yourself) are often signs that something is up and you should talk to a doctor about those things. Not always are they signs of trouble, but it's much better to talk to a professional if you're experiencing them than to ignore them until the problem gets so bad that even going to a doctor seems like a hopeless pursuit.

[Fennijer]

Eh. Back when I was regularly thinking of/attempting suicide, I appreciated the "you probably just want attention, otherwise you'd go through with it already" attitude more than the "noooo, don't do it, your life is worth something!" attitude. Largely because it matched my own thoughts better, and I could feel as though I wasn't really mentally ill, -- since a mentally ill person would have killed themselves already -- and thus had hope for improvement. Of course, that was me, and other people would probably benefit from a different approach.

Depression and suicidal threats are not always due to a mental illness. People can become depressed through a number of reasons. Is the person who commits suicide because they were raped or lost their job mentally ill? No, they are experiencing depression due to legitimate reasons. I am not suggesting that mental illness is not a legitimate reason, but I am suggesting that you should not slap the label of 'mentally ill' on someone who expresses the feeling of futility.

1. More than 90% of those who commit suicide suffer from depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). And suicidal thoughts are a major symptom of mental illnesses. So the connection is not spurious.

2. Don't confuse "feeling sad" or "feeling futile" with clinical depression and/or suicidal ideation.

I did not claim the connection was 'spurious'. I did warn that the connection should not be applied unless you have evidence to confirm it. It seems in this case that the 'boy' has issues with rejection, if I am understanding the role of the 'girl' in the OP. I was merely stating that one should not start throwing the 'mental illness' card around unless one is qualified to do so.

[Snafturi]

There has not been a suicide attempt, those take resolve. If the kid was to try killing himself and failed (which is quite pathetic) it would obviously require professional help. That isn't being disputed by me or anyone else in the thread. However, making mention of suicide, openly, to ones peers is just a tactic to garner sympathy and see reactions. Hell, I was drunk one evening a few years ago and messaged an old friend on aim something along the lines of "No one would miss me if I was dead" just to see how fucking awesome I am. Its an attention seeking behavior, nothing more, nothing less.

Serious consequences can come out of "just threatening" to take one's life. When I was 14 I went to a friend's house with a group of people. The girl's house that we were at was a bit drunk and very perky, dancing around her room saying she was going to kill herself (I didn't know the girl that well, but this apparently wasn't new). We didn't think much of it, we thought she was just being wierd. A little later she wanders out of the room and the next thing we hear is her sister shrieking. The girl was standing in the kitchen, deeply slashing her arms with a knife. I don't remember what happened next (it was 14 years ago), but the next thing I remember is laying in the bathtub with her holding her arms down while she struggled to tear open the wounds on her arms. She tried finger nails, she tried teeth, she wanted to bleed and was doing a pretty good job of it. I managed to keep her from hurting herself further until the paramedics arrived.

Yeah, the girl wanted attention. She also wanted to off herself. She wanted to go out in a big, flaming ball of glory with as many witnesses as she could find. She almost got her wish. These weren't little "look at me cut myself" slashes, these were for real slashes. Thankfully we were kids of the 90's and didn't know it was down the block and not across the street.

[Kryozerkia]

This is an excellent example of why one shouldn't listen to the advice of ignorant people. They don't know what the hell they are talking about.

They may also be callous jerks.

EDIT: From the National Insitute of Mental Health:

Most suicide attempts are expressions of extreme distress, not harmless bids for attention. A person who appears suicidal should not be left alone and needs immediate mental-health treatment.

I expected more from someone of your stature. A petty flame and a wrongly quoted source does much to diminish any reputation you have here and should probably be avoided in subsequent postings...

There has not been a suicide attempt, those take resolve. If the kid was to try killing himself and failed (which is quite pathetic) it would obviously require professional help. That isn't being disputed by me or anyone else in the thread. However, making mention of suicide, openly, to ones peers is just a tactic to garner sympathy and see reactions. Hell, I was drunk one evening a few years ago and messaged an old friend on aim something along the lines of "No one would miss me if I was dead" just to see how fucking awesome I am. Its an attention seeking behavior, nothing more, nothing less.

You have displayed callous disregard for others and exteme ignorance in your "advice."

I humbly suggest you shut the fuck up.

Regardless, I have a friend I need to help that did try to commit suicide a few days ago. I won't waste more time here.

Cat, I honestly expect more from you, as you have been around long enough to know better than this. Don't flame other players. Warned.

[Saint Clair Island]

Feelings of hopelessness or thoughts of hurting yourself are definite signs that it's time to seek professional help.

What if those thoughts don't really affect your life, being just that -- thoughts, with no consequent action?

Changes in how you care for yourself (eating less, eating more, sleeping less, sleeping more, grooming less, grooming more, hanging out less with friends, obsessing over things, using drugs, food or alcohol to comfort yourself) are often signs that something is up and you should talk to a doctor about those things.

What if you do those things even when not "depressed" -- i.e. have few friends in general, tend to get obsessed over stuff, eat or sleep a lot (or not very much), drink or do drugs, without ever contemplating suicide? Are you nonetheless at a higher risk of suffering from depression?

[Smunkeeville]

Feelings of hopelessness or thoughts of hurting yourself are definite signs that it's time to seek professional help.

What if those thoughts don't really affect your life, being just that -- thoughts, with no consequent action?

So, like you're feeling great and functioning properly and really very satisfied with life, except for those transient thoughts about killing yourself?

It strikes me as the same type of thing I tried to convince my family of during intervention, sure I'm functioning fine, I go to school, I go to work, I have friends... completely ignore the constant steady stream of drugs I'm pumping into my body, it's irrelevant. I show up for work on time.

What if you do those things even when not "depressed" -- i.e. have few friends in general, tend to get obsessed over stuff, eat or sleep a lot (or not very much), drink or do drugs, without ever contemplating suicide? Are you nonetheless at a higher risk of suffering from depression?

If it's part of their normal personality and it's not affecting their lives adversely... then what are we talking about here?

I'm talking about sudden changes, someone who goes from sleeping 8 hours a night to sleeping 16 hours a day. Someone who loses 30 pounds "without trying" because they haven't felt like eating. Someone who suddenly starts collecting things to the point that you can't walk in their house..... or more subtle changes, like "not feeling" like going out with your friends when you used to enjoy it.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

He sounds like a whining little shit. Fifteen years old, threatening nonexistence over a girl? Pathetic. Worthless. Perhaps he should carry out this threat and relieve reality of his stain.

Its fascinating that, no matter how much callous dickishness you see on-line, you can always find a new example right around the corner.

You mean we shouldn't euthanize all the mentally ill people just because they're clearly not being a benefit to society?

I would argue that my mental illness benefits society immensely.

[Saint Clair Island]

Feelings of hopelessness or thoughts of hurting yourself are definite signs that it's time to seek professional help.

What if those thoughts don't really affect your life, being just that -- thoughts, with no consequent action?

So, like you're feeling great and functioning properly and really very satisfied with life, except for those transient thoughts about killing yourself?

Pretty much, yeah -- you can go to work, interact with people socially, lead a normal life, etcetera. The thoughts about killing yourself would only appear on certain days when life isn't working out for you as well.

(A more extreme example of my life comes to mind: some days I don't want to do anything, can't socialize, can't work, everything I touch goes wrong, I sleep lots more than usual, eat almost nothing, and lack the motivation necessary even to post on NSG or something. The rest of the week I'm just fine.)

What if you do those things even when not "depressed" -- i.e. have few friends in general, tend to get obsessed over stuff, eat or sleep a lot (or not very much), drink or do drugs, without ever contemplating suicide? Are you nonetheless at a higher risk of suffering from depression?

If it's part of their normal personality and it's not affecting their lives adversely... then what are we talking about here?

Wouldn't that kind of lifestyle affect their lives adversely anyway -- in that they don't have friends, could be prone to obesity or anorexia or alcoholism, et cetera?

I'm talking about sudden changes, someone who goes from sleeping 8 hours a night to sleeping 16 hours a day. Someone who loses 30 pounds "without trying" because they haven't felt like eating. Someone who suddenly starts collecting things to the point that you can't walk in their house..... or more subtle changes, like "not feeling" like going out with your friends when you used to enjoy it.

And how can you tell if those changes aren't occurring for some completely unrelated reason (i.e. someone stops eating because they feel they need to lose weight, or doesn't feel like going out with friends because they don't like those friends as much anymore, or something)?

[Smunkeeville]

Pretty much, yeah -- you can go to work, interact with people socially, lead a normal life, etcetera. The thoughts about killing yourself would only appear on certain days when life isn't working out for you as well.

(A more extreme example of my life comes to mind: some days I don't want to do anything, can't socialize, can't work, everything I touch goes wrong, I sleep lots more than usual, eat almost nothing, and lack the motivation necessary even to post on NSG or something. The rest of the week I'm just fine.)

Seems like something I would bring up with my doctor.

Wouldn't that kind of lifestyle affect their lives adversely anyway -- in that they don't have friends, could be prone to obesity or anorexia or alcoholism, et cetera?

Yes. All things to talk to your doctor about.

And how can you tell if those changes aren't occurring for some completely unrelated reason (i.e. someone stops eating because they feel they need to lose weight, or doesn't feel like going out with friends because they don't like those friends as much anymore, or something)?

I think a good friend would ask. If you notice your friend acting differently, you should find out if they're okay. If they then tell you they're trying to lose weight or that they had a falling out with a friend, then you know. If they tell you they want to die, then you could urge them to seek help.

[Reploid Productions]

I always hate seeing these kinds of threads; they invariably draw out some of the worst in people.

Everybody, remember to keep it civil! I understand that this can be a very emotional, personal subject for those who have experienced depression or suicidal thoughts, or who deal with someone that is depressed or potentially suicidal; however remember that your experiences don't give you special permission to break the site's rules. Similarly for those on the other side of the discussion, bear in mind that this can be a sensitive topic and obnoxious comments and trolling are not appreciated.

That aside, on the original topic:
Nobody here is truly qualified to make any blanket statement about your friend's specific situation. We have no way to know the details of the situation and other such information that is needed to make any specific suggestions viable. That's a job for professionals, not an internet forum. If you believe there is a good chance your friend is serious, I would recommend trying to get him to talk to a professional or a school counselor... someone that can help him or at least refer him to someone that can. Look up suicide hotlines online; if the situation is bad enough, try to get your friend to call; or call yourself. They are run by people who are trained to deal with these situations and can probably offer you much better advice than we can. Plus you can safely discuss the details of the situation and they can adjust their recommendations accordingly for the situation.

And most importantly, take care of yourself! You should probably talk to a counselor or something yourself; dealing with a friend that is emotionally distraught is incredibly stressful as I'm sure you already know! Remember, you're just one person and no matter how well-meaning your efforts, your friend's fate is ultimately up to him regardless of all the professional help in the world. You can offer help and be a good friend, but no matter what does or doesn't happen, it's not your fault. As one of my psychology professors is fond of saying: The only thing in this world that you control and are responsible for is yourself. You can try to influence events around you, but ultimately you do not control them and bear no responsibility for the actions of other people.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

For about a month or so now, my good friend Gregory has been talking about suicide.

I've been talking to him online for quite some time, and he'll even mention it sometimes in person. It's over a girl he knows, he's really believing she's the central cause of his life being in seemingly shattered ruins.

At first I talked to him and he seemed like he'd be okay, but it's getting progressively worse.

Personally, at the end of every talk, I'll remind him that I am no person to choose how he handles his situation, I've brought up my experiences, my religious views, my alternative solutions. Nothing I do does anything more than give him a sense of friendship, comfort, and understanding from me, and the next time we talk, he brings suicide up again.

I don't know what to do and I'm very worried.

ah this looks like a very touchy topic...as some of you probably already know.
I'm also fairly confident that you will have got some good advice from other posters but i'd like to add.

I suppose you should be grateful he's willing to talk to you about suicide, it's quite difficult to talk over personal things with other people. Try bugging him to talk to a professional, or over the phone to a helpline (i'm not sure what phone advice centres are available in the US but there must be some somewhere).
Suicide is a very tough idea to wrap your head around, once you feel like you want to kill yourself it takes alot of effort and support to stop/reduce these thoughts. The cultural taboos in the US/UK don't help either.
Getting him to talk to a professional is your best bet, but if you do discuss this with him take care to listen really listen to what he has to say. oh and avoid using humour about suicide it's not supportive and it's quite humiliating in some cases for some people who consider suicide.

[Grave_n_idle]

Getting him to talk to a professional is your best bet...

This. ^^

CT already presented evidence of how the 'industry' suggests dealing with this kind of scenario. It is always safest to assume that every (realistic) threat is genuine.

[Kamsaki]

My own circumstances may not be relevant to your friend, but I'll share them anyway. My contemplation of ending life was performed in solitude - I wasn't willing to talk to anyone about it because I knew I'd just end up causing concern and probably considerable bother for anyone I got involved with. Feeling alone, helpless and without direction tends to compound one's shortcomings into pushing them into that consideration, and a sense of empathy and concern for the consequences of your actions doesn't necessarily help.

But the simple fact is, if you're prepared to end your life, there's not a lot you aren't prepared to do. The only thing you have left to lose is your life, so you are ideally placed to take the risks that might take it from you. Why would you respond to the world's cruelties by giving in to them, when you could fight to reverse those cruelties and make life worth living for others?

I believe that there is a great deal of potential in those who have seriously looked death in the face - it is the realization that this world should not be as it is, that something is deeply and fundamentally wrong with a world that drives people to rationally consider killing themselves. Religious extremism exploits this realization and twists it to its own ends, while the West tries to cure it by denouncing it as mental illness. I call it clarity. The world is seriously fucked up. And we need people who understand that. Because without you, it'll stay that way.

[Zombie PotatoHeads]

I wouldn't recommend giving him a Sylvia Plath book of poems as a present.

[BrightonBurg]

Tell your freind,dont do it! if he kills himself, his enemies win! live!!!

This is by far the best reason not to commit suicide I have ever heard. Thank you my freind, I am cured of my depression. For if I do die, a little bit of the revolution dies with me.

Thank you, thats my motto,dont let the bastards win! stay in the fight,make your life better! nothing galls your enemies more than YOU living well.

[Heinleinites]

Thank you, thats my motto,dont let the bastards win! stay in the fight,make your life better! nothing galls your enemies more than YOU living well.

As a thorough-going bastard myself, I'd just like to point out that we usually win in the end anyways, whether you give up or not. So you might as well save yourself the trouble.