NationStates

Maurepas wrote:

Grave_n_idle wrote:

Sibirsky wrote:I can give you a range. In 5 years $18-$20 trillion. In 10 years $30-$36 trillion. Assuming the whole thing doesn't collapse before then.

I can give you a range. In 5 years, we'll have a profit of $20 trillion. In 10 years, a profit of $900 trillion.

Hmm...I think Ill stick with GnI on this one...

Makes me think of when me and a few friends got on an elevator, we looked at it and it said, "7 persons or 2000lbs maximum weight"...We looked at eachother and went "Lets stick with the 7 persons"

Right. He said $20 trillion PROFIT in 5 years to a question of how much debt we will have. Considering we are almost $12 trillion in debt now, that is a profit of $6.4 trillion per year for the next 5 years. That us 2.5 times larger than the revenues the government has ever generated and is almost half of our economy. Yeah, that's very reasonable.

Sibirsky wrote:

Grave_n_idle wrote:

Sibirsky wrote:I can give you a range. In 5 years $18-$20 trillion. In 10 years $30-$36 trillion. Assuming the whole thing doesn't collapse before then.

I can give you a range. In 5 years, we'll have a profit of $20 trillion. In 10 years, a profit of $900 trillion.

Profit? From what? The government will have these astronomical profits?

Why do I have to back up random numbers, but you don't?

It seems likely we'll save money in the longterm, so I'll take my figures over yours.

Grave_n_idle wrote:

Sibirsky wrote:

Grave_n_idle wrote:I can give you a range. In 5 years, we'll have a profit of $20 trillion. In 10 years, a profit of $900 trillion.

Profit? From what? The government will have these astronomical profits?

Why do I have to back up random numbers, but you don't?

It seems likely we'll save money in the longterm, so I'll take my figures over yours.

Well the $12 trillion is well known so I'll leave that alone, the "in 5 years" is Team Obama's projections on the low end and I added a bit to the high end in case the economy hits some road bumps. The 10 year numbers are obviously even more iffy. Your numbers (especially the 10 year numbers) are not reasonable. Not plausible (well, perhaps if we end up like Zimbabwe they are).

Sibirsky wrote:
Well the $12 trillion is well known so I'll leave that alone, the "in 5 years" is Team Obama's projections on the low end and I added a bit to the high end in case the economy hits some road bumps. The 10 year numbers are obviously even more iffy. Your numbers (especially the 10 year numbers) are not reasonable. Not plausible (well, perhaps if we end up like Zimbabwe they are).

you should really provide a source when you make claims like that,

Current: $11.4 trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Sibirsky wrote:Well the $12 trillion is well known so I'll leave that alone, the "in 5 years" is Team Obama's projections on the low end and I added a bit to the high end in case the economy hits some road bumps. The 10 year numbers are obviously even more iffy. Your numbers (especially the 10 year numbers) are not reasonable. Not plausible (well, perhaps if we end up like Zimbabwe they are).

So... your numbers are rubbish, but, because they are debt, you like them better? That seems to be about the strength of it.

No one holds your bias against you, here - but just own it.

Muravyets wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:*phew*

the commie thing doesnt seem to be scaring as many people as it used to. i guess dying from lack of care is more scary today than communism.

I'm not too proud to state right now and for the record that I will take any system that will give me access to reliable health care when I need it for less than the $260+/month I am paying now (a significant reduction from what I was paying a few months ago) plus deductibles and non-covered expenses, and I don't care if the plan booklet actually comes in a red cover with a gold star on it.

Jesus f-ing CHRIST! $260 a month?! Do you know how much I pay a month?

$32.

For that little amount, I can walk into my doctors office any time I please and have them look at me for any form of itch, burn, pain, soreness, broken bone or severed limb.

Additional treatments, pharmacuticals, specialists, dental, eyeglasses, physiotherapy, hell, even accupuncture and massage are covered by my plan at work, and generally cost me only a fraction of the whole price of the proceedure ($450 orthotics cost me... $100).

Why population paying hundreds of dollars a month for coverage would continue to support such a system when the government is offering to subsidize that cost just sounds... irrational to put it gently. Does the recession not put the pinch on your pocket books? :/

Current: $11.4 trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

In 5 years, White House projection $18.35 trillion http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/classic.html#usgs302

They do not have projections past 5 years. I admit I came up with that $30-$36 number on my own. However the $18-$20 five year number is reasonable, considering the White House says $18.35.

Sibirsky wrote:Current: $11.4 trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Oooh ... I could write one of those in about a day, and using the numbers I like, come up with anything I like.

You know how we'll pay for it? We'll tax the living daylights out of everyone making over $250,000 a year, to the point where they won't be able to afford a new car for two years. Don't like it? Vote us out of office. I dare ya.

Farnhamia wrote:You know how we'll pay for it? We'll tax the living daylights out of everyone making over $250,000 a year, to the point where they won't be able to afford a new car for two years. Don't like it? Vote us out of office. I dare ya.

The subsequent economic collapse really will be change...

Farnhamia wrote:

Sibirsky wrote:Current: $11.4 trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Oooh ... I could write one of those in about a day, and using the numbers I like, come up with anything I like.

You know how we'll pay for it? We'll tax the living daylights out of everyone making over $250,000 a year, to the point where they won't be able to afford a new car for two years. Don't like it? Vote us out of office. I dare ya.

Are you disagreeing with the number?

Vetalia wrote:

Farnhamia wrote:You know how we'll pay for it? We'll tax the living daylights out of everyone making over $250,000 a year, to the point where they won't be able to afford a new car for two years. Don't like it? Vote us out of office. I dare ya.

The subsequent economic collapse really will be change...

Change is what we'll have left.

Iniika wrote:

Muravyets wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:*phew*

the commie thing doesnt seem to be scaring as many people as it used to. i guess dying from lack of care is more scary today than communism.

I'm not too proud to state right now and for the record that I will take any system that will give me access to reliable health care when I need it for less than the $260+/month I am paying now (a significant reduction from what I was paying a few months ago) plus deductibles and non-covered expenses, and I don't care if the plan booklet actually comes in a red cover with a gold star on it.

Jesus f-ing CHRIST! $260 a month?! Do you know how much I pay a month?

$32.

For that little amount, I can walk into my doctors office any time I please and have them look at me for any form of itch, burn, pain, soreness, broken bone or severed limb.

Additional treatments, pharmacuticals, specialists, dental, eyeglasses, physiotherapy, hell, even accupuncture and massage are covered by my plan at work, and generally cost me only a fraction of the whole price of the proceedure ($450 orthotics cost me... $100).

Why population paying hundreds of dollars a month for coverage would continue to support such a system when the government is offering to subsidize that cost just sounds... irrational to put it gently. Does the recession not put the pinch on your pocket books? :/

Where do you live? What is your tax rate?

Sibirsky wrote:

Farnhamia wrote:

Sibirsky wrote:Current: $11.4 trillion http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Oooh ... I could write one of those in about a day, and using the numbers I like, come up with anything I like.

You know how we'll pay for it? We'll tax the living daylights out of everyone making over $250,000 a year, to the point where they won't be able to afford a new car for two years. Don't like it? Vote us out of office. I dare ya.

Are you disagreeing with the number?

No, I'm making fun of your astonishing seriousness. I knew I needed a sarcastic smiley in there somewhere. But I could write a page like that to show anything I want. I notice that while the "About" page claims to use "multiple sources" it doesn't name any, or give the calculations behind the numbers.

Farnhamia wrote:

Sibirsky wrote:
Are you disagreeing with the number?

No, I'm making fun of your astonishing seriousness. I knew I needed a sarcastic smiley in there somewhere. But I could write a page like that to show anything I want. I notice that while the "About" page claims to use "multiple sources" it doesn't name any, or give the calculations behind the numbers.

Ok ok. I admire you HTML skills

I live in BC

As someone who gets someone else to do her taxes every year, I'm not sure what my tax rate is, but if it helps, I've got this.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
and this
http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/premium.html

Even granted that being classified as lower income gives me a subsidy... Even paying full coverage for a large family would only be $108 a month...

Iniika wrote:
Jesus f-ing CHRIST! $260 a month?! Do you know how much I pay a month?

$32.

For that little amount, I can walk into my doctors office any time I please and have them look at me for any form of itch, burn, pain, soreness, broken bone or severed limb.

Additional treatments, pharmacuticals, specialists, dental, eyeglasses, physiotherapy, hell, even accupuncture and massage are covered by my plan at work, and generally cost me only a fraction of the whole price of the proceedure ($450 orthotics cost me... $100).

Why population paying hundreds of dollars a month for coverage would continue to support such a system when the government is offering to subsidize that cost just sounds... irrational to put it gently. Does the recession not put the pinch on your pocket books? :/

indeed. i'm actually not sure what i pay per month, in terms of my National Insurance contribution, cos it automatically comes out of my wages on Pay (tax) As You Earn, but i can't imagine its much more than that (say, £50, considering my total taxes and student loan repayments, etc, total about £100 pcm)
i seem to recall an American poster saying that their antidepressant prescription was costing them about $120 a bottle. now, i don't know how long a bottle will last, but i get 4 months of the same antidepressant here for £6.50. and, no, i really don't mind paying about £50 per month for other people's healthcare, because i know that when i need some serious health treatment, it'll be free to me due to others contributing to my healthcare in the same way i have theirs.

the NHS rocks, y'all would be crazy not to go for it (or something like it)


edit:

Grave_n_idle wrote:
When I took my 2 year old to the doctor (over here), and was told that they simply would not give him shots if I didn't have cash to pay - I realised for the first time just how much I prefer the UK's system. I'd rather have waiting lists than treatment being optional, depending on revenue.

QFT

"Oh no, that paramedic did not check my wallet before loading me into the ambulance, truly, I must be in Hell"?

Really Nice Hats wrote:"Oh no, that paramedic did not check my wallet before loading me into the ambulance, truly, I must be in Hell"?

Well obviously, noone wants to be put in the same vehicle with.....their sort...

Iniika wrote:
Jesus f-ing CHRIST! $260 a month?! Do you know how much I pay a month?

$32.

For that little amount, I can walk into my doctors office any time I please and have them look at me for any form of itch, burn, pain, soreness, broken bone or severed limb.

Additional treatments, pharmacuticals, specialists, dental, eyeglasses, physiotherapy, hell, even accupuncture and massage are covered by my plan at work, and generally cost me only a fraction of the whole price of the proceedure ($450 orthotics cost me... $100).

Why population paying hundreds of dollars a month for coverage would continue to support such a system when the government is offering to subsidize that cost just sounds... irrational to put it gently. Does the recession not put the pinch on your pocket books? :/

Yes, it fucking well does put, not a pinch, but a goddamned choke-hold on my pocket book. I live in Massachusetts where the insurance and pharma industries have so shoved the state legislature down their crotches, that I am now forced by state law to have private insurance, and if I don't have an employer who can provide it for me, then I must pay for it out of my own pocket. If I am actually indigent, I can qualify for a subsidy towards the cost, but if I am only made impoverished by the cost of the insurance I must buy (but not before that bill), then I don't qualify for any assistance or cost reduction whatsoever. Furthermore, this so-called "universal health coverage plan" -- this TRAVESTY of such a plan -- places ZERO restrictions on the private insurers who are making a fucking mint off this. They can still deny coverage at their sole discretion. They can still increase premiums by any amount they like every time a policy renews. Etc. Oh, and they even got the legislature to require after the fact -- as an amendment to the law -- that everybody in Mass has to buy prescription coverage, too, whether we need medications or not.

I have had to reduce the quality of my coverage twice so far (and change insurers once so far) just to be able to also afford rent and food while carrying this extra cost. Yeah, there's that free fucking market for us -- big private business using the power of government to force private citizens to give their money to said private businesses. And if I don't? I have to account for my insurance coverage on my state income tax returns and if I don't have whatever the state decides to accept as "credible coverage" for a sufficient portion of the year, I will be hit with a tax penalty that the state refuses to define.

And THIS is what the federal government has been considering as a model for the nation. We are so fucking fucked, it's not even funny. I want a damned nationalized single payor system already, but I will absolutely NOT support any system that does not at the very least include a public optional, tax-funded system that is accessible by choice to all Americans, regardless of means.

Muravyets wrote:

Iniika wrote:
Jesus f-ing CHRIST! $260 a month?! Do you know how much I pay a month?

$32.

For that little amount, I can walk into my doctors office any time I please and have them look at me for any form of itch, burn, pain, soreness, broken bone or severed limb.

Additional treatments, pharmacuticals, specialists, dental, eyeglasses, physiotherapy, hell, even accupuncture and massage are covered by my plan at work, and generally cost me only a fraction of the whole price of the proceedure ($450 orthotics cost me... $100).

Why population paying hundreds of dollars a month for coverage would continue to support such a system when the government is offering to subsidize that cost just sounds... irrational to put it gently. Does the recession not put the pinch on your pocket books? :/

Yes, it fucking well does put, not a pinch, but a goddamned choke-hold on my pocket book. I live in Massachusetts where the insurance and pharma industries have so shoved the state legislature down their crotches, that I am now forced by state law to have private insurance, and if I don't have an employer who can provide it for me, then I must pay for it out of my own pocket. If I am actually indigent, I can qualify for a subsidy towards the cost, but if I am only made impoverished by the cost of the insurance I must buy (but not before that bill), then I don't qualify for any assistance or cost reduction whatsoever. Furthermore, this so-called "universal health coverage plan" -- this TRAVESTY of such a plan -- places ZERO restrictions on the private insurers who are making a fucking mint off this. They can still deny coverage at their sole discretion. They can still increase premiums by any amount they like every time a policy renews. Etc. Oh, and they even got the legislature to require after the fact -- as an amendment to the law -- that everybody in Mass has to buy prescription coverage, too, whether we need medications or not.

I have had to reduce the quality of my coverage twice so far (and change insurers once so far) just to be able to also afford rent and food while carrying this extra cost.

And THIS is what the federal government has been considering as a model for the nation. We are so fucking fucked, it's not even funny. I want a damned nationalized single payor system already, but I will absolutely NOT support any system that does not at the very least include a public optional, tax-funded system that is accessible by choice to all Americans, regardless of means.

QFMFT

why are we splitting hairs over little green pieces of paper when real people are really dying?

anyone who thinks having the best health insurance money can buy will save their lives needs to check out wendel potter's (former ceo of communications for cigna) on today's (thursday july 16 2009) democracy now.

www.democracynow.org

We either get universal or regulate the health companies either one would work but keeping it the same will not work

Moreau Catholic High wrote:"No, it increases the size of a government, controls the populous even more and when someone is costing the government too much money, they can simply go 'oops, screw you, we're not giving you proper treatment anymore sucker'."

I'm pretty sure if you're going to be "controlled" by a NHS, you have to sign up for it first.

And your second statement is just beyond ridiculous, mostly because that's what private insurance companies do already.

Its ok when private Insurance does it, that's Capitalism.

You know that taxing the rich just gives them the incentive to move to where things are less expensive and they can buy what they want in other countries?

Who the heck are you going to tax for your national health care /socialized medicine if the rich emigrate and don't have to pay for your health care?