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Your stand on abortion?

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Northwest Slobovia
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Sat May 16, 2009 2:43 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:For me it depends on how far the pregnancy is. If the fetus has a functioning brain and neural net, it is somewhat hard for me to not see it as a little person. As such I would like some restrictions on abortion in that stage.


Some restrictions? It's a person, but not really?

I draw the line at adult brain function: yes before, no after. FWIW, that makes the old US "trimester" approach approximately right, since fetal brain function can't be distinguished from an adults at 16-17 weeks after conception.
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Gearmany (Ancient)
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Gearmany (Ancient) » Sat May 16, 2009 2:48 pm

Never wrong People wrote:If you try to kill someone it is murder.

Each miscarriage is different. If it was done on purpose, it was an abortion
If it naturally happened or happened for a unknow reason, it is natural death.


Wrong >_> You can't murder a fetus because it isnt a person until it comes out of its mother.

I've noticed something Never wrong people, YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG IN SO MANY WAYS IN EVERY POST IN THIS TOPIC.
Last edited by Gearmany (Ancient) on Sat May 16, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mudslap
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Mudslap » Sat May 16, 2009 3:06 pm

Parthenon wrote: When a person chooses to have sex that person is also choosing to enter into a game of pregnancy roulette. Abortion shouldn't serve as a crutch for the irresponsible.


If your not old enough or mature enough to face the consequences that come with having sex then you shouldnt be having it. Also contraceptives are available for people who want to have sex without getting pregnant and girls you should always know if you've missed your pill and guys you should wear condoms. There is also the morning after pill (which stops fertilisation of the eggs) for when you do realise you've had unprotected sex. Take responsibility for your actions because an abortion isn't something that should be as accessible as buying milk from the corner store there should be definite guidelines for people who are allowed to get them: the mothers health is in danger, pregnancy from a rape, incest.
Dont think an abortion will be easy on you because a fetus isn't just something that could be an inconvienience in your life, a fetus is something that could be your son or daughter. Dont take lightly a decision to kill your own child.

And to argue with people who say "You can't murder a fetus because it isnt a person until it comes out of its mother". If you or your partner was pregnant and somebody stabbed them in the stomach and killed the baby would you want the perpertrator charged with murder or is it ok because the baby isnt a person. Would being charged with grevious bodily harm be a harsh enough charge?

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Maurepas
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Maurepas » Sat May 16, 2009 3:10 pm

Mudslap wrote:
If your not old enough or mature enough to face the consequences that come with having sex then you shouldnt be having it. Also contraceptives are available for people who want to have sex without getting pregnant and girls you should always know if you've missed your pill and guys you should wear condoms. There is also the morning after pill (which stops fertilisation of the eggs) for when you do realise you've had unprotected sex.

Those arent always effective, and when they are not, the Woman still has the right to choose whether the Baby grows in her uterus...

Mudslap wrote:And to argue with people who say "You can't murder a fetus because it isnt a person until it comes out of its mother". If you or your partner was pregnant and somebody stabbed them in the stomach and killed the baby would you want the perpertrator charged with murder or is it ok because the baby isnt a person. Would being charged with grevious bodily harm be a harsh enough charge?

They would be charged with Assault, and Attempted Murder (on the woman), seems fair enough to me....either way, at bare minimum, they are being locked up for most or all of their functional lives...

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Veblenia
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Veblenia » Sat May 16, 2009 3:11 pm

Abortion is an emotionally-fraught, complicated issue. Of the several women I know that have had abortions, none of them made the decision lightly, and most of them have said they wouldn't go through it again. Though I can certainly respect the moral position of people who say they wouldn't have an abortion, I think it ultimately has to come down to a personal choice between a woman and her doctor.

Moreover, in the forty years that abortion has been legal in Canada, it has become one of the safest surgical procedures available. This is primarily why I support legal access; women will, and do, terminate pregnancies regardless of the law. If they have to seek an illegal abortion they do so at much greater physical risk to themselves; legal access saves lives.
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Shadowbat
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Shadowbat » Sat May 16, 2009 3:13 pm

If its past ther second trimester, i wouldnt agree with it unless in certain circumstances. Before that i believe it is up 2 the mother.

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UNIverseVERSE
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby UNIverseVERSE » Sat May 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Never wrong People wrote:I would like to hear more about justifications for choicing to end a pregancy.


Fine. Granting, briefly, that the fetus is a separate being, with full rights to its own life, we can still justify abortion. We merely note that your right to life does give me an obligation to allow my body to be used to support your life. It follows that abortion is justifiable, as the fetus, despite having a right to life, has no right to the mother's body for support of that life.

This argument is, as far as I can tell, original with Judith Jarvis Thomson, in her essay A Defense of Abortion. Errors in this post are likely my own. I have merely sketched the position, read the linked essay for a fuller explanation.

Edit: I may have misunderstood your post. If you were asking "for what reasons might women choose to end a pregnancy?", then there are many answers. More common ones include: severe medical conditions in the fetus, severe threat to the health of the mother, and economic or social pressure.
Last edited by UNIverseVERSE on Sat May 16, 2009 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jordsindia
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Jordsindia » Sat May 16, 2009 3:28 pm

I respect all your positions, but i believe that abortion is only good if the mother is in danger.Otherwise, there is no use for abortion because some drunk person had unprotected sex. They went on with the shame and chose abortion to get rid of it. Its their fault, and they should live with it.
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Maurepas
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Maurepas » Sat May 16, 2009 3:34 pm

Jordsindia wrote:I respect all your positions, but i believe that abortion is only good if the mother is in danger.Otherwise, there is no use for abortion because some drunk person had unprotected sex. They went on with the shame and chose abortion to get rid of it. Its their fault, and they should live with it.

But, what if they had protected sex and got pregnant, is that their fault?

Does the poor life of the kid in question living under parents in this situation come in to play?

Regardless, you cant make blanket statements about very personal and individual decisions such as these...
Last edited by Maurepas on Sat May 16, 2009 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Never wrong People
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Never wrong People » Sat May 16, 2009 3:47 pm

UNIverseVERSE wrote:
Never wrong People wrote:I would like to hear more about justifications for choicing to end a pregancy.


Edit: I may have misunderstood your post. If you were asking "for what reasons might women choose to end a pregnancy?", then there are many answers. More common ones include: severe medical conditions in the fetus, severe threat to the health of the mother, and economic or social pressure.


Yes, that was the question I was trying to ask.
People lets talk about "economic and/or social pressures"

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Spiremania
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Spiremania » Sat May 16, 2009 3:48 pm

Arsenio Delattre wrote:I believe that the woman should have the right to choose


Every always says that its the woman's right to choose. But what about the father? I think they should have equal say.

I also think it should be illegal for a woman to get an abortion without telling the father (assuming the father is around)

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Maurepas
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Maurepas » Sat May 16, 2009 3:51 pm

Never wrong People wrote:
Yes, that was the question I was trying to ask.
People lets talk about "economic and/or social pressures"

Well, the economic should be patently obvious, Not enough money to afford to care for a child...

As far as Social Pressures, in many places it is an extreme taboo to be raped, and the Woman is shunned, therefore there is an extreme need to get rid of the "evidence" so to speak...

and, more locally, there is a stygma attached to Unwed, Underage Mothers, and, while not exactly shunned, they are looked down upon, and may miss opportunities previously open to them...

both of the latter prettymuch guarantee the former....

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Veblenia
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Veblenia » Sat May 16, 2009 3:52 pm

Spiremania wrote:
Arsenio Delattre wrote:I believe that the woman should have the right to choose


Every always says that its the woman's right to choose. But what about the father? I think they should have equal say.

I also think it should be illegal for a woman to get an abortion without telling the father (assuming the father is around)


I support the father's choice in all cases where the fetus is growing inside the father's body.
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Maurepas
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Maurepas » Sat May 16, 2009 3:54 pm

Spiremania wrote:
Arsenio Delattre wrote:I believe that the woman should have the right to choose


Every always says that its the woman's right to choose. But what about the father? I think they should have equal say.

I also think it should be illegal for a woman to get an abortion without telling the father (assuming the father is around)

I, personally, would be inclined to agree, but there are significant arguments against it though, such as the Woman having control over her body, and noone else having it...

its just imo, but I would expand it to stop Fathers forcing abortions as well, that way its entirely consensual...

However, enforcing that would be a nightmare, so the current policy of simply keeping the option available and on the table is the one I support at the current time...

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Zavizar
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Zavizar » Sat May 16, 2009 3:57 pm

Gearmany wrote:You can all quibble over when it is ok or not ok to abort but there is really one true fine defining line... Birth. It's that simple, until it's born it is still a FETUS. And outlawing abortion is just stupid, if they want to have their stomachs sliced open it's their choice. THEY carried the baby, THEY can decide what to do with it.


*applauds*

I personally do not think it be the government's responsibility let alone right to determine whether or not a person should be allowed to second guess their pregnancy. Speaking as a female, of course. This is my right to decide.

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Milks Empire
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Milks Empire » Sat May 16, 2009 3:58 pm

I could never recommend it unless:
1. The pregnancy results from rape (which means she didn't consent to any of it) or incest
2. The fetus likely won't make it to or much past term
3. The life of the mother is in grave danger
God bless her if she chooses to keep it anyway in any of those situations.

But the law should leave the door open until the point at which the pregnancy is viable. Banning it won't stop it, but only drive it underground.
Instead, making adoptions easier to carry out, comprehensive sex education (to arm teenagers with the info to stop these pregnancies before they start), and better access to protection (which includes not keeping condoms behind the counter) would be much more likely to work in actually reducing the number of abortions, which I'm sure most people would agree is a good thing.

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Muravyets
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Muravyets » Sat May 16, 2009 4:12 pm

Anyone who has ever seen any of the innumerable and endless abortion debates on the old forum will know that I am pro-choice. Stance stated.

Now to wade in on others' posts...
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Muravyets
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Muravyets » Sat May 16, 2009 4:12 pm

Jordsindia wrote:What do you guys think of abortion? I wanna see what you think on this issue. For me, i do not agree with abortion. It should be illegal in my eyes. What do ya guys think?

Care to offer a reason why it should be illegal?
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Muravyets
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Muravyets » Sat May 16, 2009 4:13 pm

New Heliopolis wrote:Pro-life unless the life of la madre is endangered through the pregnancy...I've as-yet-unprovable knowledge of souls...

So do I, but I fail to see what they have to do with abortion. What possible affect can abortion have on a soul that death at any other time would not have?
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Sheila Anteres
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Sheila Anteres » Sat May 16, 2009 4:14 pm

Abortion should be allowed / available upon request without conditions.
The government MUST NOT infringe on a woman's right to choose or to act as her conscience dictates.
What is growing inside of her is NOT an independent organism and therefore not a life; it is 'alive', but so are your skin cells and muscle cells, but they are not a life. To be considered a life, it must be able to biologically survive on its own. A fetus or embryo cannot do that, hence it is not a life, only an extension of the women, part of her body. And as such, she reserves the right to do as she pleases; without interference from the state or anyone else.

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Never wrong People
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Never wrong People » Sat May 16, 2009 4:17 pm

what do you do for an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy? Answer on the new thread I created.

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Muravyets
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Muravyets » Sat May 16, 2009 4:23 pm

So many fallacies, so little time before the universe implodes...where to start?
Parthenon wrote:The waiting list for an adoption is over 3 years in some parts of the country,

A stumble out of the gate. (I just watched the Preakness Stakes.)

1) Which country?

2) So drive over to the next county then. Or hop a plane to Romania. It is not my job to produce babies for you.

unless their is some physical threat to the mother beyond cosmetics then there is no reason to have an abortion.

How would you know?

When a person chooses to have sex that person is also choosing to enter into a game of pregnancy roulette.

And that's what abortion is for. It is one optional response to that risk.

Abortion shouldn't serve as a crutch for the irresponsible.

Ah, babies as punishment for not being a virgin, eh? Always a great way to value the life of a child, by using it to pass judgment on someone else.

You do realize that, last I heard, approximately 60% of all women who have abortions already have at least one child, right? Many are married. Many would like to have more children if circumstances were supportive, only they're not. If they had another child at the given time, they would have a hardship supporting the existing child. So tell me, how irresponsible are those women being then? Is it your definition of responsibility that a woman should abandon her care of an existing child in order to punish herself for her and her husbands' contraceptive failing?

How about rape victims? How irresponsible is it of a woman to be violently attacked (statistically mostly probably while she was in her own home, minding her own business) that you would call an abortion a crutch for her irresponsibility?

I have known plenty of women who have had multiple abortions since they cant keep their pants on, that's no excuse...

Personal anecdotes = fail. Your mythical skank acquaintances do not represent the majority of women in the world nor the main reasons why abortion is necessary to have as an option in reproductive medical care.
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Muravyets
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Muravyets » Sat May 16, 2009 4:41 pm

Never wrong People wrote:A new life begins when egg and sprem join together.
Killing any life after it is created is murder.

Are you sure about that? 100% sure you don't want to reword that? Because, you know, that would make eating salad = murder.

Abortion is murder.
The person is not a potential one, but is already a person!!!
It is truth that person is 100% dependant on his or her mother for the first stages of life, but it does not mean that the mother has a right to kill that person.

Actually it does, in two ways:

1) Let us pretend for the sake of this point that a 1-week-old embryo really is a person. That does not give little Junior McEmbryo the right to use my body for his purposes against my will. There is no person in the world who has such a right. No one is allowed to take one of my kidneys or lungs or my blood, etc, for their purposes against my will. Even if they will die if they don't get my organs, they cannot force me to give them to them. There is no person on the planet who has any right to hook themselves up to my body and syphon off my nutrients, blood, use my kidneys and liver like some kind of living dialysis machine, etc, against my will.

And yes, if someone tries to take me by force and use me in such a way, I, as the owner of my body and its parts, have the absolute right to defend myself against such a gross intrusion, up to and including deadly force, if need be to get free of them. That means I can kill them if I have to to keep them from using me.

So just because Mr. J. McEmbryo is a person, why should he have rights over me that no other person is allowed to have?

2) From an entirely different angle, you still fail. Let's assume again that Junior McEmbryo is a person. He is, however, NOT a COMPETENT person. That means he is not able to articulate his desires or communicate his needs or his condition to doctors, lawyers, or anyone else. Assuming even that he has any such desires or needs -- he certainly is not able to give any clue that he has any consciousness at all. Obviously, he has zero ability to make decisions for himself about his own care, etc. That means someone who is competent has to act as his proxy. Who better to do that than the competent living person who is acting as his life support? That person -- the pregnant woman -- is the most immediately and drastically affected by everything that happens to little Junior. She is also the adult who has legal custody over him anyway and is his legally recognized guardian endowed with the authority to make decisions for his well-being. And that includes the decision to "pull the plug" and end little Juniors brief life, if need be. Just like she would if he got hit by a truck and was on life support with little or no hope of recovery mere minutes after he was born. Before-his-own-life-begins proxy decisions are not significantly different from end-of-his-own-life proxy decisions.

So on both the issue of ending unwanted pregnancies and ending otherwise wanted pregnancies, there is no one better able to make that decision than the woman, and no one who can be more justifiably endowed with that authority.

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Jahka
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Jahka » Sat May 16, 2009 4:43 pm

Muravyets wrote:
Never wrong People wrote:A new life begins when egg and sprem join together.
Killing any life after it is created is murder.

Are you sure about that? 100% sure you don't want to reword that? Because, you know, that would make eating salad = murder.


I'm assuming your mentally handicapped. Because to everyone else it was clear, because of the context of this thread, that he meant human life. I sorry if you didn't understand that.

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Jahka
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Re: Your stand on abortion?

Postby Jahka » Sat May 16, 2009 4:46 pm

Veblenia wrote:
Spiremania wrote:
Arsenio Delattre wrote:I believe that the woman should have the right to choose


Every always says that its the woman's right to choose. But what about the father? I think they should have equal say.

I also think it should be illegal for a woman to get an abortion without telling the father (assuming the father is around)


I support the father's choice in all cases where the fetus is growing inside the father's body.


23 of the fetuses chromosomes is the father's. Why doesn't he have a legal right to decide.

If my fiancé ever aborted one of our children...

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