Christian Theology Thread

[Novistranaya]

And give a free pass to all of you agnostics or non believers? No, he doesnt want your false compassion or last minute conversation when he appears after not believing all your life. Only the faithful will inherit the Kingdom, as it was promised to us in Revelations (And several other places for that matter, but that is the only one that comes to mind.)

I don't want his false love when he tries to reel me back in with his hate-spewing, "god-fearing", parasitic agents; preaching about his "endless love" and the "never-ending joy" of "his kingdom". If your "god" cannot see that by giving my lifeblood to people in need, by helping those I can when the opportunity arises, and by keeping my integrity and self-honor upheld to a mostly moral standard (you know, simple things like telling the truth, returning lost wallets, giving money to the beggar, etc.); then he doesn't deserve my "love".

I pledge allegiance to no vain, petty god who would refuse to recognise my contributions without me believing in his magical sky-fairyness. With his worshipers generally given a free pass for the most heinous of crimes simply by "confessing" their sins to him, and by "promising" to not do it again; it seems quite unfair that us law-abiding, generous, integritous, atheist men and women would have to suffer for one minor "flaw" in our lives.

Just doesn't seem like love to me.

Except that He loves you already, whether you believe in Him or not. He sent His Son to die for ALL, not just a few "special people" (according to John Calvin "the elect"). Think of it like this, He's a king, you live in territory that is in rebellion against Him and you support said rebels. He's offering a chance for you to renounce the rebel cause and come back to Him, without repercussions. If you remain loyal, it's all good, if you return to the rebellion, well...need I say more? Those "christians" who live like they do never actually renounced the rebel cause and just pay lip service to God.

[Terraius]

Actually I was pointing out that those Protestant sects that condone gay bashing are heretics to the scripture and doctrine of Jesus Christ and in no way are endorsed by the Catholic Church. So dont group us together, please.

It's annoying, isn't it? To get grouped in with a bunch of animals and dog lovers? Drop your Bible and go to your local Gay/Straight Alliance and contribute. God will most definitely give you a medal when you're in Heaven.

Uh, no. Im not going to abandon my faith because some German Monk was upset that the current Pope was abusing his power a bit and was due to be removed from power by his own clergy to begin with. Let them answer for their own sins.

[Northsylvania]

I come from a very long line of Methodists, and studied theology at a Methodist University, and Methodists are absolutely, unequivocally Protestant! It is true that Methodism was born out of the Anglican Communion; John Wesley himself remained an Anglican priest until his death. One of the reasons for the Methodist movement, however, was to move away from the Catholic ritual of Anglicanism. I might add, the Anglicans in America, known as Episcopalians, called their church the Protestant Episcopal Church until 1979!

Protestant by name and Protestant by practice are two different things.


The Episcopal Church is merely the post-revolution Church of England. It follows nearly the same doctrine and faith, etc; again, using protestant in the common noun form is what your thinking of. I dont see why Methodists or Anglicans would want to self identify with Protestants or Radical reformers myself, but thats beyond me. To each their own.

Methodist are Protestant by name and practice...Why we even celebrate Reformation Sunday, the last Sunday of October. I don't see why Methodists or Anglicans would want to self identify with Catholics, Roman or otherwise, but that's beyond me. To each his own.

[Newest Accord]

I don't think God will care if I don't think the Bible makes any sense to me, nor that gays can get married, nor that people don't have to get together. That article means as much to me as Heresy does when "Christian" people use it when they hear I think gays should be allowed to have the same rights as me: not much at all. If this is Heresy, then God, throw me in the Rabbit Hole.

EDIT: sorry... then God, YOU SMUG BASTARD, throw me in the Rabbit Hole.

Actually I was pointing out that those Protestant sects that condone gay bashing are heretics to the scripture and doctrine of Jesus Christ and in no way are endorsed by the Catholic Church. So dont group us together, please.

Whoa! Hang on a minute. Catholics view procreation as paramount...no condoms; and you're saying they support gays? Contradiction? Stopping the gay movement would be a Catholic thing to do so they stop rear mounting, and produce more Catholics don't you agree? Oh; and of course the whole Priest thing...let them marry so they won't be inclined to rear mount boys.
The least offensive way to bring that up...try not to take offense. I don't mean all Catholics.

[Terraius]

Except that He loves you already, whether you believe in Him or not. He sent His Son to die for ALL, not just a few "special people" (according to John Calvin "the elect"). Think of it like this, He's a king, you live in territory that is in rebellion against Him and you support said rebels. He's offering a chance for you to renounce the rebel cause and come back to Him, without repercussions. If you remain loyal, it's all good, if you return to the rebellion, well...need I say more? Those "christians" who live like they do never actually renounced the rebel cause and just pay lip service to God.

This x100. At the coming of the millennium, granted you haven't been a mortally sinning evil nasty from hell, and have remained pure of heart and soul, you will have the chance to renounce that rebellion and embrace him with the love he has bestowed upon the world.

[Avenio]

Infinitey is impossible to reach by law of physics, there is always a start and an end in physics. There is never a physical instance where a point goes on forever ever, and there can never be something infinitley dense, just as there can never be something negativley or that-of-none dense (as Einstein and his successors hypothesized.)

Interesting. Dr. Hawking and Cygnus X-1 disagree.

The Big Bang Theory requires a degree of Faith to believe in it, in that, the initial four energies that created/encompassed this initial point were there from.. nothing. Without a degree of faith, then you cannot have grounds to prove how and where said point would have accumulated. And faith =/= science as most would have it, which is ignorant but beside the point, so again, this presents a falacy.

We understand the particles in which these fundamental forces come about. They have been proven to exist. We can understand how they interacted with each other in the primordial universe and how they came to be. The only thing we have that is based upon 'faith' is the idea that all of these concepts will mesh together nicely without causing physicists worldwide to have simultaneous brain hemorrhages. We're also getting close to the answer to that.

The unusual ordering and shape of the universe nearly nullifies the theory of an expansion. The Big Bang as theorized could not have exploded or expanded the way it did and produce a near perfect ordering of the universe as it stands. The odds are impossible and the laws of physics can not account for the unusual ordering of the universe other then 'It just fell into place like that', which, is more less saying you have faith that the universe put itself together.

It's not perfect. Not by a long shot. If the universe was 'perfect', by my understanding, and all of the forces and particles balanced out, the universe would be a smear of particles shooting off into the inky beyond. Matter and antimatter would have annihilated each other very soon after everything began to settle down. Even getting past that, if we look at images from WMAP and other sources, we can see that our universe, or at least our corner of it, is a fairly lumpy and un-uniform thing.

[The Rich Port]

It's annoying, isn't it? To get grouped in with a bunch of animals and dog lovers? Drop your Bible and go to your local Gay/Straight Alliance and contribute. God will most definitely give you a medal when you're in Heaven.

Uh, no. Im not going to abandon my faith because some German Monk was upset that the current Pope was abusing his power a bit and was due to be removed from power by his own clergy to begin with. Let them answer for their own sins.

I wonder who it was who said... "The only thing more evil than doing evil is watching evil being commited and doing nothing about it". That good book of ours is 55% bullshit. And what the hell are you talking about, German Monk? I'm talking about gays, for His sake. Now I'm confused if there's a reference or something involved.

[Newest Accord]

Terraius, no offence, butt fuck doctrine, butt fuck the Bible, butt fuck Churches. It is common knowledge that a good portion of the American Christian movement have abused all of these things to further some conservative hysterical mania. I've had rocks thrown at me just because one of my friends was gay. You outline all of these things and it's like Christianity is a sham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

I thought Stoning was an authorized punishment. Both homosexuals and adulterers get stoned in the Bible.
And I don't mean Weed!

[Newest Accord]

Except that He loves you already, whether you believe in Him or not. He sent His Son to die for ALL, not just a few "special people" (according to John Calvin "the elect"). Think of it like this, He's a king, you live in territory that is in rebellion against Him and you support said rebels. He's offering a chance for you to renounce the rebel cause and come back to Him, without repercussions. If you remain loyal, it's all good, if you return to the rebellion, well...need I say more? Those "christians" who live like they do never actually renounced the rebel cause and just pay lip service to God.

This x100. At the coming of the millennium, granted you haven't been a mortally sinning evil nasty from hell, and have remained pure of heart and soul, you will have the chance to renounce that rebellion and embrace him with the love he has bestowed upon the world.

Year 3000?

[Terraius]

Whoa! Hang on a minute. Catholics view procreation as paramount...no condoms; and you're saying they support gays? Contradiction? Stopping the gay movement would be a Catholic thing to do so they stop rear mounting, and produce more Catholics don't you agree? Oh; and of course the whole Priest thing...let them marry so they won't be inclined to rear mount boys.
The least offensive way to bring that up...try not to take offense. I don't mean all Catholics.

No.. we dont support homosexuality as a practice or ideology. We support and love the homosexual himself because he is a human being and we were told to love all regardless, so we embrace them and attempt to guide them to Christ. It is up to them if they want to listen to God or ignore him as they have been.

And also fun fact: The number of filed reports against clergy accused of sexually assaulting young children are majority favored to be married protestant pastors. Yes, the Church had some evil priests with ill intention, and yes they were dealt with; albeit the media did overexagerate the crisis as is usual when you are a religious minority, but again beside the point. Sexual predators amongst clergy in any Christian sect or denomination is near non existence and has only been reported a handful of times, and of those times few were proven to be true and not just an attempt to get money from the church itself.

[Newest Accord]

If the universe was 'perfect', by my understanding, and all of the forces and particles balanced out, the universe would be a smear of particles shooting off into the inky beyond. Matter and antimatter would have annihilated each other very soon after everything began to settle down. Even getting past that, if we look at images from WMAP and other sources, we can see that our universe, or at least our corner of it, is a fairly lumpy and un-uniform thing.

Very astute.

[Terraius]

Uh, no. Im not going to abandon my faith because some German Monk was upset that the current Pope was abusing his power a bit and was due to be removed from power by his own clergy to begin with. Let them answer for their own sins.

I wonder who it was who said... "The only thing more evil than doing evil is watching evil being commited and doing nothing about it". That good book of ours is 55% bullshit. And what the hell are you talking about, German Monk? I'm talking about gays, for His sake. Now I'm confused if there's a reference or something involved.

You obviously have no idea what either Im talking about or what your talking about, because your attacking Catholics as a whole for the actions of non Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

I thought Stoning was an authorized punishment. Both homosexuals and adulterers get stoned in the Bible.
And I don't mean Weed!

In the OT yes, it was. Jesus Christ, our savior, was outspoken against this old law practice.

'He that is without sin, cas the first stone' lest yet be judged before your creator.

Year 3000?

Its just a saying. The Millennium is in reference to the 1000 period of bliss and teaching the earth is promised to have so that the souls of humanity may be saved through the word of our lord.

[Novistranaya]

This x100. At the coming of the millennium, granted you haven't been a mortally sinning evil nasty from hell, and have remained pure of heart and soul, you will have the chance to renounce that rebellion and embrace him with the love he has bestowed upon the world.

Year 3000?

12/21/2012 MAYBE, if we're lucky!

[Newest Accord]

Whoa! Hang on a minute. Catholics view procreation as paramount...no condoms; and you're saying they support gays? Contradiction? Stopping the gay movement would be a Catholic thing to do so they stop rear mounting, and produce more Catholics don't you agree? Oh; and of course the whole Priest thing...let them marry so they won't be inclined to rear mount boys.
The least offensive way to bring that up...try not to take offense. I don't mean all Catholics.

No.. we dont support homosexuality as a practice or ideology. We support and love the homosexual himself because he is a human being and we were told to love all regardless, so we embrace them and attempt to guide them to Christ. It is up to them if they want to listen to God or ignore him as they have been.

And also fun fact: The number of filed reports against clergy accused of sexually assaulting young children are majority favored to be married protestant pastors. Yes, the Church had some evil priests with ill intention, and yes they were dealt with; albeit the media did overexagerate the crisis as is usual when you are a religious minority, but again beside the point. Sexual predators amongst clergy in any Christian sect or denomination is near non existence and has only been reported a handful of times, and of those times few were proven to be true and not just an attempt to get money from the church itself.

Yes evil Priests. This was not exaggerated; and not for profit. This is just one incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_of_St._Vincent

[Newest Accord]

Year 3000?

12/21/2012 MAYBE, if we're lucky!

But that would spoil my plans for the new Reich!
Besides; like all the rest of the so called Omens, bullshit.

[Terraius]

Interesting. Dr. Hawking and Cygnus X-1 disagree.

No, they support my idea, if you see Black hole, you will also see General Relativity: The main opponent that negative, infinite, or 0 mass or density can be obtained through natural means. Black holes are not infinite. If they were, then the entire universe would be swallowed up by them. Blackholes do not lead to nowhere: That would violate the laws of the Big Bang that matter was allocated and scattered and that it could not simply go away or disappear, but rather be maintained and enclosed in a space.

We understand the particles in which these fundamental forces come about. They have been proven to exist. We can understand how they interacted with each other in the primordial universe and how they came to be. The only thing we have that is based upon 'faith' is the idea that all of these concepts will mesh together nicely without causing physicists worldwide to have simultaneous brain hemorrhages. We're also getting close to the answer to that.

Basic Particles and ultra simple particles is in no way proof of a universe without a before. If anything it only confirms the existence of an architect and neat, ordered, and structured things rather then clumps of random stuff.

And your not as close as you think my friend. Also, ironically, the String Theory contradicts the Big Bang and is the forefront for replacing the Big Bang as the generally accepted theory of how the universe came to be.

It's not perfect. Not by a long shot. If the universe was 'perfect', by my understanding, and all of the forces and particles balanced out, the universe would be a smear of particles shooting off into the inky beyond. Matter and antimatter would have annihilated each other very soon after everything began to settle down. Even getting past that, if we look at images from WMAP and other sources, we can see that our universe, or at least our corner of it, is a fairly lumpy and un-uniform thing.

Your exactly right, and I agree completely, at least on the first part.

I dont have the map handy, but even the WMAP simply proves the point that no major explosion would have amounted to a patterned universe as you can see like that. Ill see if I cant locate the one displaying the relative location of clusters and formations that gives a crystal clear view of a very organized and patterned universe that is impossible to produce through any outward expansion movement.

[Batuni]

Because Jesus loved all, if anything in the Bible is true. Why would he and his father only want those who worshiped them to get through? If I remember correctly, God is an omnipotent, omnipresent and benevolent being. He wouldn't forsake the multitude of nonbelievers simply because they didn't worship him like a sheep to a herder.

Since you suppose the Bible is true, man is sinful. God cannot be near sin, love sin etc. According to the Bible Jesus is the only way. Non believers, therefore are still sinful. God cannot be near sin, therefore they cannot go to heaven.

So... you're saying that there is some higher authority than god?

And if man is sinful ( because god said so? Because its superiors did?), then... no one goes to heaven?

If Jesus is the only way - because, one assumes, god decided so, rather than his boss(es) - for mankind to be absolved of their sins, then why did this sweet and fluffy god make them sinful in the first place?

[Terraius]

Yes evil Priests. This was not exaggerated; and not for profit. This is just one incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_of_St._Vincent

Just because the film wasnt for monetary profit doesnt mean they didnt profit through tarnishing the image of the Church. Dont be a fool.

I didnt say sexual abuse never happened. It did and has happened before. Did it happen to the degree the American media covered it? No. As always, they exaggerated it, and brought false accusations to hundreds of innocent clergymen, including my very own Archdiocese, and Im glad to say that the archbishop fought tooth and nail and exposed for the lies that the accusers are; I only wish it could have been publicized as much as the sexual abuse scandal was.

Only about.. 20%ish of Americans are Catholics. We are a religious minority. We are frowned upon by mainstream American Protestants and made out to be enemies of the state because we indirectly swear loyalty to another foreign sovereign. Catholics are seen as tyrants because we oppose the mindless culture of death that surrounds abortion, as well as being seen as tyrants for trying to keep the government from regulating marriage and treating it as if it has no grounds in religious affairs.

But its ok. We are persecuted, and we shall be persecuted. Revelations was God's final promise to us, to not forget us and leave us to suffer at the hands of the wicked, unrighteous, or unjust, and he has kept all of his promises up until now, so I sleep sound at night knowing he will keep his Covenant with us.

[Supreme Marshal Petan]

-What is your religion or lack thereof? Agnostic
-What major issues do you have with certain denominations, or with Christianity as a whole? I lost faith in God, not his church.

[Novistranaya]

Since you suppose the Bible is true, man is sinful. God cannot be near sin, love sin etc. According to the Bible Jesus is the only way. Non believers, therefore are still sinful. God cannot be near sin, therefore they cannot go to heaven.

So... you're saying that there is some higher authority than god?

And if man is sinful ( because god said so? Because its superiors did?), then... no one goes to heaven?

If Jesus is the only way - because, one assumes, god decided so, rather than his boss(es) - for mankind to be absolved of their sins, then why did this sweet and fluffy god make them sinful in the first place?

He didn't, He gave us a simple directive, we defied it, thus our rebellion, and thus, separation from Him began.

[Terraius]

-What is your religion or lack thereof? Agnostic
-What major issues do you have with certain denominations, or with Christianity as a whole? I lost faith in God, not his church.

So... you're saying that there is some higher authority than god?

And if man is sinful ( because god said so? Because its superiors did?), then... no one goes to heaven?

If Jesus is the only way - because, one assumes, god decided so, rather than his boss(es) - for mankind to be absolved of their sins, then why did this sweet and fluffy god make them sinful in the first place?

He didn't, He gave us a simple directive, we defied it, thus our rebellion, and thus, separation from Him began.

To answer both of these: God did not leave us, you left God. Rather, we did, as we are all guilty of forsaking him at one time or another. I was agnostic for 3 years after I left the Methodist church. I left God, but he never left me. I was a drug addict hooked on pot and pills and on the verge of suicide before he reminded me he was here for me, always. Since then Ive lived in his name, got my shit together, and heeded his calling to help those who cant help themselves.

[Newest Accord]

I wonder who it was who said... "The only thing more evil than doing evil is watching evil being commited and doing nothing about it". That good book of ours is 55% bullshit. And what the hell are you talking about, German Monk? I'm talking about gays, for His sake. Now I'm confused if there's a reference or something involved.

You obviously have no idea what either Im talking about or what your talking about, because your attacking Catholics as a whole for the actions of non Catholics.

I thought Stoning was an authorized punishment. Both homosexuals and adulterers get stoned in the Bible.
And I don't mean Weed!

In the OT yes, it was. Jesus Christ, our savior, was outspoken against this old law practice.

'He that is without sin, cas the first stone' lest yet be judged before your creator.

Year 3000?

Its just a saying. The Millennium is in reference to the 1000 period of bliss and teaching the earth is promised to have so that the souls of humanity may be saved through the word of our lord.

I see...and this is where it gets creepy. The dead shall walk the earth for a thousand years converting those Pagans and Heretics to Christ. Satan is bound during this time; but will be loosed after this to run a muck with his undead after this time. Then the big war...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tbr/tbr086.htm
http://www.awitness.org/biblehtm/re/re20.htm

Revelations 20:2 He seized the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole inhabited earth, and bound him for a thousand years,

Revelations 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.

Gog and Magog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog
Food for thought.

[Supreme Marshal Petan]

-What is your religion or lack thereof? Agnostic
-What major issues do you have with certain denominations, or with Christianity as a whole? I lost faith in God, not his church.

He didn't, He gave us a simple directive, we defied it, thus our rebellion, and thus, separation from Him began.

To answer both of these: God did not leave us, you left God. Rather, we did, as we are all guilty of forsaking him at one time or another. I was agnostic for 3 years after I left the Methodist church. I left God, but he never left me. I was a drug addict hooked on pot and pills and on the verge of suicide before he reminded me he was here for me, always. Since then Ive lived in his name, got my shit together, and heeded his calling to help those who cant help themselves.

And kudos to you, brother. Honestly. Look I use to be a practicing Catholic, I went to mass and confession weekly. But I have stopped and I don't feel sad or empty, but happy. Not because I'm free, but because being a follower of God wasn't my thing. I like waking up on my Sundays, golfing, smoking a cigar, reading the NY Times while drinking a cocktail.

I don't got anything against those who have religion, I've just lost my admiration for it. Maybe one day I'll go back. I had an ex who was practicing and got me back to mass for a bit.

[Terraius]

I see...and this is where it gets creepy. The dead shall walk the earth for a thousand years converting those Pagans and Heretics to Christ. Satan is bound during this time; but will be loosed after this to run a muck with his undead after this time. Then the big war...

Pretty much. Thats the point where those who may have been nonbelievers but not complete dicks their entire lives can get the chance to redeem themselves. If not, then they can cook over the fire with Lucifer. Hur hur.

[Avenio]

No, they support my idea, if you see Black hole, you will also see General Relativity: The main opponent that negative, infinite, or 0 mass or density can be obtained through natural means. Black holes are not infinite. If they were, then the entire universe would be swallowed up by them. Blackholes do not lead to nowhere: That would violate the laws of the Big Bang that matter was allocated and scattered and that it could not simply go away or disappear, but rather be maintained and enclosed in a space.

Note where I said 'infinite density', not 'infinite size'. Something can be of nigh-infinite density and be the rough 'size' of the Sun; which most black holes are.

Basic Particles and ultra simple particles is in no way proof of a universe without a before. If anything it only confirms the existence of an architect and neat, ordered, and structured things rather then clumps of random stuff.

Unfortunately, nowhere in the big bang theory does it state anything about what happened before the primordial singularity. All it says is that at the beginning of time (T=0), the universe was an infinitely dense singularity, which rapidly expanded and cooled outward. Besides which, we can't really say what happened before the big bang occurred, as our understanding of the physics is nowhere near complete enough yet. There are theories and models, but we can't do much to be able to prove them yet.

And your not as close as you think my friend. Also, ironically, the String Theory contradicts the Big Bang and is the forefront for replacing the Big Bang as the generally accepted theory of how the universe came to be.

Unfortunately, no. The congolmeration of string theories are what is known as a hypothesis for the 'theory of everything', which would reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics, both of which work very well in their own particular scales, but are massively contradictory when attempted to be used together, into a working universal model of physics. It doesn't deal with the big bang or the creation of the universe, just the mechanics behind it.

Your exactly right, and I agree completely, at least on the first part.

I dont have the map handy, but even the WMAP simply proves the point that no major explosion would have amounted to a patterned universe as you can see like that. Ill see if I cant locate the one displaying the relative location of clusters and formations that gives a crystal clear view of a very organized and patterned universe that is impossible to produce through any outward expansion movement.

Well, the biggest and most 'crystal clear' model of the universe we currently have is the Millennium Simulation, a view of the very, very large-scale universe. The filaments you see are actually galaxy superclusters, strewn over trillions of light years of space and time. As we zoom farther and farther out, you can see that the overall density of the galaxy clusters stays relatively the same, with clusters forming around common centres of gravity at relatively random points in space, with no real structure other than the large clusters, filaments and voids strewn throughout at random.