Multiculturalism Has Failed: Your Experience

[Miklesia]

That would help but it is only part of the solution. To really make it a deterrent you have to backdate the law at least ten to fifteen years and make employers pay a lot of back pay and back benefits.

Ex post facto laws are outlawed by the Constitution.

[Old Erisia]

i think i hear a violin playing.

More like the Debbie Does Dallas theme, amirite?

Yes. Most definitely XD

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

hmm. Earlier I said "Mexican Immigrants" when I meant Mexican-Americans.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

That only applies to persons. A corporation is not a person.

[Norstal]

That would help but it is only part of the solution. To really make it a deterrent you have to backdate the law at least ten to fifteen years and make employers pay a lot of back pay and back benefits. If unscrupulous employers find themselves paying dearly for past misdeeds they will be less incline to attempt new ones.

But we can't just put all the punishment on the employer, we have to increase punishments on people who knowingly provide employers with false identity or work eligibility documents.

Both employers and employees should be punished if they both knew. In the event the employer did not know then we just check to see they paid the minimum wage and provided the minimum health coverage. If they did not, then require back pay for the difference. If the employer did know, on the other hand, then they should go to prison for conspiring to break US law.

Ok, Now I see your misunderstanding.

Forcing companies to pay illegals the same wage as normal Americans is not punishing at all. In fact, combined with the fines and financial loss that the company may suffer (people are less likely to buy stuff from a company that hires illegals) by hiring illegals, they might as well pay them the same wage as Americans.

And I ask you, if they are allowed to hire illegals without fines under the condition that they pay them as equal as an American or minimum wage, what incentive would they have to hire illegals?

Its not punishment. In fact, its an incentive. Its an incentive for Americans to work harder and its an incentive for employers to hire Americans. This will then punish the illegals to work harder than the Americans too. If there is a position filled out by an illegal and an American want that job, they can simply fire the illegal. But if its an American who held that job, they can't simply be fired because of the Unions and such. If an American doesn't want the job, nor is anyone applying for such jobs, then its not job stealing.

They also don't have to pay back benefits or any back pay. Their past mistakes will be forgiven.

Bottom line, paying equal wages to illegals is a punishment for illegals themselves and benefits companies so that they don't have to care if they are an illegal or not.

Of course, this means that an illegal can forge their documents and such, but that is of a different topic. I am sure that, with the numbers of illegals being discovered working, this is not a problem at all anyways.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Most laws and have little to do with historic placement because things changed over time.

Irrelevant. You suggested natives deserved advantage - so (current) law is off-topic for your own argument. Prioritising prior occupation can't be arbitrary - you either prioritise who is (t)here first, or you don't. And if you don't... then your suggestion didn't make any sense.

Actually it does because the Aztecs did live in the American southwest. They didn't even live in California until the Spanish brought them in as help. Even the whites were in California before the Aztecs. Before the whites, there were the Pimo, the Chumash, the San Manuel, the Morongo but there were no Aztecs or Mayans.

The Aztec were not here, on US territory, "before everyone else". In fact they never set foot in the territory until they were brought in by the Spanish.
People of Aztec descent have no historic claims to any part of California, Arizona, or any other part of the present day US.

[Ryadn]

Northern California, East Bay, here. Every time I step into a classroom, it's a multicultural experience.

My first year of teaching, I taught an overload kindergarten class, which means kids from different schools were bused over until space opened up in their home schools, and the turnover rate was high. In a class that held 20 students at a time, I had nearly 40 students over the year.

I had students who came from every habitable continent except Australia: a kid from Peru, a kid from Sweden, a kid from China, a bunch of kids from India, kids from Minnesota and New York, and a kid from Djibouti.

My students spoke 13 different languages: English, Spanish, Tagalog, Tongan, Hindi, Gujarati, Dogri, Tamil, Punjabi, Mandarin, French, Swedish and Farsi.

My students celebrated at least 6 different faiths: Catholic, Protestant Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jainist.

I had students whose parents were doctors and professors, and students whose parents were migrant farmers, and students who had no dad, or no mom, or two moms. Students who were already being prepped for Stanford and students who were on food stamps and free lunch. My little classroom was the most diverse place I could imagine, and the fact that it was not only possible, but normal for all of them and for me, tells me that multiculturalism can work.

[Kalynosis]

I had students whose parents were doctors and professors, and students whose parents were migrant farmers, and students who had no dad, or no mom, or two moms. Students who were already being prepped for Stanford and students who were on food stamps and free lunch. My little classroom was the most diverse place I could imagine, and the fact that it was not only possible, but normal for all of them and for me, tells me that multiculturalism can work.

Sounds like statism.

[Ryadn]

I had students whose parents were doctors and professors, and students whose parents were migrant farmers, and students who had no dad, or no mom, or two moms. Students who were already being prepped for Stanford and students who were on food stamps and free lunch. My little classroom was the most diverse place I could imagine, and the fact that it was not only possible, but normal for all of them and for me, tells me that multiculturalism can work.

Sounds like statism.

Smells like troll.

[Kalynosis]

Sounds like statism.

Smells like troll.

I know right? People thinking people can live side by side happily? Sounds like dirty terrorist communism to me.

[Ryadn]

Smells like troll.

I know right? People thinking people can live side by side happily? Sounds like dirty terrorist communism to me.

I'm really not interested in a debate about political ideologies and their definitions. If "different kinds of people getting along" is your definition of "statism", bully for you.

[The Harrowlands]

I'd like to know about the experiences of people outside the US as regards multiculturalism.

Well in Australia our politicians tell us that we live in a "multicultural society", even though it's quite obvious that we don't: what they mean is that there are a lot of Asians here and a few parts of Melbourne and Sydney are vaguely "multicultural". My experience is that while there are a lot of different ethnicities present in Australian society, the vast majority of us seem to follow the same Anglicised Australian culture. Even if we take into account the indigenous people, of whom 69% live in rural or remote areas, they are still a minority (the pollies don't want me saying this, though). A country is not multicultural if it has a national culture which the vast majority of the population follows, with a few minorities. Even if immigrants do come here and refuse to assimilate, chances are that their children will most likely be fully assimilated, and if not, their children (second generation?) will undoubtedly become assimilated into Australian culture. I guess a lot of Australians tend to get the terms "multiculutral" and "multiethnic" mixed up. When we say "multicultural" we mean "multiethnic" (because that's what we think multicultural means...). But then again, I live in Brisbane...

I don't really like the concept of multiculturalism much anyway. My view is that a nation (meaning a people with unique "national" traits: language, culture, religion, ethnicity etc.) will prosper better as a monocultural country, without foreign, alien cultures intruding and challenging the indigenous culture*. Geoffrey Blainey described it as a "cluster of tribes". When I think of "multicultural" USA, I actually see monoculturalism - which is the eventual product of multiculturalism: almost complete degradation of all genuine "national" culture. American monoculturalism as culture of consumerism: I see Hollywood, pop music, American clothes and food, Everybody Loves Raymond (and other American programmes) etc. In Australia we are lucky to have been able to "Australianise" the British culture we inherited into a culture that is distinctly Australian.

*Yea I know I'm being a bit hypocritical here but I can't really help how history has turned out

[Farnhamia]

That only applies to persons. A corporation is not a person.

The Constitution says nothing about the prohibition of ex post facto laws applying only to people. The relevant texts are Article One, Section 9 ("No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.") and Section 10 ("No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.")

[Old Erisia]

That only applies to persons. A corporation is not a person.

The Constitution says nothing about the prohibition of ex post facto laws applying only to people. The relevant texts are Article One, Section 9 ("No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.") and Section 10 ("No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.")

And lets not forget that corporations can be considered persons under the law. Its just I'm not sure its clear in what cases you can.... there was a topic about this a while ago and someone posted the "law chain" that could be used to judge a corporation as a person or citizen under the law. Transitive property ftl...

[Farnhamia]

The Constitution says nothing about the prohibition of ex post facto laws applying only to people. The relevant texts are Article One, Section 9 ("No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.") and Section 10 ("No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.")

And lets not forget that corporations can be considered persons under the law. Its just I'm not sure its clear in what cases you can.... there was a topic about this a while ago and someone posted the "law chain" that could be used to judge a corporation as a person or citizen under the law. Transitive property ftl...

Good point. I'm sure one of our legal sorts can tell us.

[Kalynosis]

I know right? People thinking people can live side by side happily? Sounds like dirty terrorist communism to me.

I'm really not interested in a debate about political ideologies and their definitions. If "different kinds of people getting along" is your definition of "statism", bully for you.

It's "progressive" and plain unchristian.

[Laerod]

I'm really not interested in a debate about political ideologies and their definitions. If "different kinds of people getting along" is your definition of "statism", bully for you.

It's "progressive" and plain unchristian.

Different kinds of people getting along is unchristian?

[Vandengaarde]

It's "progressive" and plain unchristian.

Different kinds of people getting along is unchristian?

Didn't you know? Jesus was an outspoken racist, and advocated hating other human beings no matter what good they did.

[Johz]

I come from Birmingham, in England (the original one) and I suppose if we complained about multiculturalism and the overthrowing of indiginous peoples, it would be slightly hypocritical. England, in part due to our colonial past, has a very varied population in many places, especially large cities like Birmingham and London. Indeed, in Birmingham, the 'native' white population is set to be overtaken within a few years. My experience is that multiculturalism can work. I came from a fairly white, middle-class primary school, but there was still a good mix of children. Then there was my secondary school, which was extremely diverse, and absolutely fanastic for it. Sadly, as the school improved, the middle class white parents in the local area suddenly realised that the school was actually quite good, and started monopolising it. It's now a well performing school, but sadly also a school that is not very diverse. The stars of the school were almost all multicultural - the samba band, the gospel choir, the fantastic food that was prepared every event, the range of teachers, dance/performance styles, art forms, etc.
Now I'm at a grammar school sixth form, and this is a very interesting time. There is a large number of various ethnicities, particuarly a lot of people from central Asia. Which actually feels really normal. I mean, watching television, I've just seen a variet of people from multiple ethnicities on television as cabinet members and union bosses. Multiculturalism does work because the majority of people have not come over to steal other people's homeland. Which is something that most people who disagree with multiculturalism don't seem to realise.

[Kalynosis]

It's "progressive" and plain unchristian.

Different kinds of people getting along is unchristian?

Of course, look at that Florida pastor, or the people that lynched that mosque in Tennessee. True faith warriors of our religion and capitalism.

In all seriousness, Ryadn, cool for you I'm actually studying education myself.

[Miklesia]

Of course, look at that Florida pastor, or the people that lynched that mosque in Tennessee. True faith warriors of our religion and capitalism.

They lynched the mosque? Did they remember to rape the houses and burn the women?

[Kalynosis]

Of course, look at that Florida pastor, or the people that lynched that mosque in Tennessee. True faith warriors of our religion and capitalism.

They lynched the mosque? Did they remember to rape the houses and burn the women?

Nah man, Big Goverment came down on them and shit

[Grenartia]

Of course, look at that Florida pastor, or the people that lynched that mosque in Tennessee. True faith warriors of our religion and capitalism.

They lynched the mosque? Did they remember to rape the houses and burn the women?

^this needs totally needs to be sigged.

[Ryadn]

Different kinds of people getting along is unchristian?

Of course, look at that Florida pastor, or the people that lynched that mosque in Tennessee. True faith warriors of our religion and capitalism.

In all seriousness, Ryadn, cool for you I'm actually studying education myself.

Oh, god. Run. Run now. I was feeling overly sentimental when I wrote that. I've just spent the day with 27 first-graders and I'm going to spend tomorrow with them too and they're not cute, they're horrible and tiny and loud, and also kind of adorable, but also with the LOUD. Flee while you can.

[Norstal]

Different kinds of people getting along is unchristian?

Of course, look at that Florida pastor, or the people that lynched that mosque in Tennessee. True faith warriors of our religion and capitalism.

In all seriousness, Ryadn, cool for you I'm actually studying education myself.

I fear for the non-Christians, blacks, Asians, and native Americans that will be in your classroom.