Obamacare Insurance Mandate Ruled Constitutional

[Sibirsky]

Wonderful. Why don't they mandate people buy from me?

Gee. what a great constitutional argument. I just need a little, tiny bit of clarification:

1. Which part of the Constitution does the Health Care Reform Act violate based on your argument? Why?
2. The District Court's independent grounds for upholding the Act are all wrong based on this point because .....?

I'm merely pointing out that it is constitutional that the Federal government can mandate that people buy certain products from businesses and suggesting that they mandate people buy my products.

[Sibirsky]

I think healthcare for profit is a disgusting and inhuman system even under the best circumstances. "Obamacare" is a very, very slight step forward.

Since conservatives are gearing up for a long, dragged out fight against this, I think it's time liberals and progressives get ready too, for taking this to the next step.

Food, clothes, shelter are all delivered more efficiently, at better prices, in greater quantity, at better quality, by private, for profit businesses. Like healthcare, they are all necessary products for our survival.

[Supreme Marshal Petan]

I think the idea of government involvement in healthcare is constitution, I still think the mandate part is not. Or is at least a bad idea (and I'm hoping for an appeal).

Look, don't get me wrong, there are a ton of pro's with this law. The fact that you can no longer be dropped or denied coverage, that you can stay on your parent's plan till a later age, all great stuff. But Obama ran on a campaign opposing mandatory coverage, in fact that's why I supported him in the primaries. And he literally did a flip on it, just to get it done. And it ticks me off.

Our economy is tough right now. People don't have jobs, and the last thing they need is the HHS telling them they now have to purchase insurance.

[Sibirsky]

I think the idea of government involvement in healthcare is constitution, I still think the mandate part is not. Or is at least a bad idea (and I'm hoping for an appeal).

Look, don't get me wrong, there are a ton of pro's with this law. The fact that you can no longer be dropped or denied coverage, that you can stay on your parent's plan till a later age, all great stuff. But Obama ran on a campaign opposing mandatory coverage, in fact that's why I supported him in the primaries. And he literally did a flip on it, just to get it done. And it ticks me off.

Our economy is tough right now. People don't have jobs, and the last thing they need is the HHS telling them they now have to purchase insurance.

I'm sure there would be a waiver or something if you are unemployed.

The mandate is not a tax. It's a tax.

[Der Teutoniker]

of course its constitutional.

all it required was the proper framing of the "mandate".

i think we need to fight to add in a public option. then the mandate isnt just a giveaway to the insurance companies.

This. Nothing I know about it sounds unconstitutional. All this is doing is simply ensuring that the corrupt insurance companies will rake in much money in new premiums. And increased premiums, now that coverage is not optional.

It's one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard of passing, but I don't think it's unconstitutional.

[Der Teutoniker]

I'm sure there would be a waiver or something if you are unemployed.

I had figured they would increase government aid to it or something.

Or the government could cut out the middle man, and just provide free healthcare, but then the dems wouldn't get as much endorsement from insurance companies in upcoming elections.

[Der Teutoniker]

Look, don't get me wrong, there are a ton of pro's with this law. The fact that you can no longer be dropped or denied coverage, that you can stay on your parent's plan till a later age, all great stuff.

I disagree, actually. All those things will do is greatly increase the premiums that everyone has to pay. And now that it's mandatory, and no one can be dropped, I expect premiums to rise incredibly. Which is good, because premiums are too artificially low as it is.

[Supreme Marshal Petan]

Look, don't get me wrong, there are a ton of pro's with this law. The fact that you can no longer be dropped or denied coverage, that you can stay on your parent's plan till a later age, all great stuff.

I disagree, actually. All those things will do is greatly increase the premiums that everyone has to pay. And now that it's mandatory, and no one can be dropped, I expect premiums to rise incredibly. Which is good, because premiums are too artificially low as it is.

I was actually thinking about that when I wrote it. And the best reply I could give is yeah that it does suck, everybody has to pay a bit (or lot) more, but honestly it's one thing I'm glad that they did do. My grandmother died from throat cancer after being exposed to asbestos while working at a factory. Neither she, nor my family received any form of compensation. And her healthcare company promptly dropped her once she was diagnosed.

I know that was some 30 years ago. But people today still get cancer, or still get sick. At least now if they have insurance, they just won't get dropped.

[Der Teutoniker]

I know that was some 30 years ago. But people today still get cancer, or still get sick. At least now if they have insurance, they just won't get dropped.

But everyone will be paying vastly more for that. Unfortunately, it's the reasonably healthy people that will suffer under this system.

If the government just provided for healthcare itself, it wouldn't need to make profit, which would end up cutting the people's end of the bill dramatically. What I'm saying is that ultimately, the reforms really suck because all they do is perpetuate the already horrible system we have. Insurance companies shouldn't simply be able to just drop coverage without a damned good reason... but mandatory? And even still, I don't even like the insurance company system.

[New Chalcedon]

Gee. what a great constitutional argument. I just need a little, tiny bit of clarification:

1. Which part of the Constitution does the Health Care Reform Act violate based on your argument? Why?
2. The District Court's independent grounds for upholding the Act are all wrong based on this point because .....?

I'm merely pointing out that it is constitutional that the Federal government can mandate that people buy certain products from businesses and suggesting that they mandate people buy my products.

Do your products objectively serve the public good (as healthcare does) when everyone has it?

If not, then nice strawman.

[Buffett and Colbert]

The mandate is not a tax. It's a tax.

Indecisive today, are we?

[Ashmoria]

oh dont be disingenuous.

when ONE senator can stop a bill its silly to talk about consensus. when obstructed and fillibustered bills end up passed with massive republican agreement, its silly to suggest that the problem is with the democrats.

of course there will always be bills that the republican caucus will strongly oppose. when they go back to just obstructing THOSE bills and those bills alone we can talk about the need for democrats to be more reasonable.

This is exactly the problem -- When they start agreeing with us, we'll quit calling them obstructionists. No matter that the problem is universally unpopular and poorly debated legislation.

noooo

it is FINE to disagree, to fight for their policies, to obstruct democratic bills that they find odious.

but to obstruct the appointment of judges who pass virtually unanimously when they DO get a vote? thats wrong. to obstruct bills that republcan governors love that THEY lament the non passage of THEN DONT VOTE FOR. thats wrong. to decide that they need to reconsider supporting a MOTHERHOOOD resolution for mother's day? thats wrong.

[Ashmoria]

Can someone provide objective authority re insurance being restricted by state in every state?

i dont know how it works but we are covered here in new mexico by insurance purchased by my husband's employer in connecticut.

but if YOU want to buy insurance in california, the only companies that can do business in california have to do business IN california and be subject to the california insurance regulatory agency.

which is why "buying across state lines" isnt a great idea unless the feds want to set up a federal insurance regulatory agencies like all the states have. otherwise all the insurance companies will be out of "delaware" like credit card companies are so as to get the least possible regulation. and they would still charge you the same amount you pay now. just like auto insurance companies do.

[Yootwopia]

The National Insurance Act.

Ohhh... I hadn't realized you were British, and didn't know that was from 1911.

The 1911 act is where you guys are at now. The setting up of the various NHS authorities in the 1940s basically built upon it, taking the findings of the Beveridge Report into account.

[The Cat-Tribe]

Gee. what a great constitutional argument. I just need a little, tiny bit of clarification:

1. Which part of the Constitution does the Health Care Reform Act violate based on your argument? Why?
2. The District Court's independent grounds for upholding the Act are all wrong based on this point because .....?

I'm merely pointing out that it is constitutional that the Federal government can mandate that people buy certain products from businesses and suggesting that they mandate people buy my products.

So that will be a refusal to answer question #1 or #2 and, instead, an admission that you were presenting (a) a strawman and (b) a non sequitur.

Thank you for playing.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

Too many babies and too many people getting STD's. The cost to America is simply too high therefore, Congress has the power to mandate that women swallow the pill at least 3 times a day, and to require even Catholics to use birth control. Not only this, but Congress has the constitutional power to require women to get abortions unless they make 5 million dollars a year.

After all, it is in the nation's interest to eliminate all costs.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Too many babies and too many people getting STD's. The cost to America is simply too high therefore, Congress has the power to mandate that women swallow the pill at least 3 times a day, and to require even Catholics to use birth control. Not only this, but Congress has the constitutional power to require women to get abortions unless they make 5 million dollars a year.

After all, it is in the nation's interest to eliminate all costs.

Gosh, it's like we live in a dictatorship!

[Ashmoria]

Too many babies and too many people getting STD's. The cost to America is simply too high therefore, Congress has the power to mandate that women swallow the pill at least 3 times a day, and to require even Catholics to use birth control. Not only this, but Congress has the constitutional power to require women to get abortions unless they make 5 million dollars a year.

After all, it is in the nation's interest to eliminate all costs.

yup thats exactly where mandating that people get health insurance will lead to.

SO much worse than the old way where you could only get insurance if they were pretty sure you wouldnt need it and if you DID they would try their damnedest to take it away from you.

[MisanthropicPopulism]

I think healthcare for profit is a disgusting and inhuman system even under the best circumstances. "Obamacare" is a very, very slight step forward.

Since conservatives are gearing up for a long, dragged out fight against this, I think it's time liberals and progressives get ready too, for taking this to the next step.

Food, clothes, shelter are all delivered more efficiently, at better prices, in greater quantity, at better quality, by private, for profit businesses.

Not really but let's move on.

Like healthcare, they are all necessary products for our survival.

Unlike healthcare, the profit on those items generally isn't generated counterintuitively. Healthcare insurance companies have no interest in you actually ever using their insurance despite the fact that everyone will eventually either get sick or have a mishap - and they have the ability to drop you or not insure you if you are sick too much. Healthcare companies make more money from treating people than from curing them.
Quite the conflict of interest.

[Deus Malum]

Too many babies and too many people getting STD's. The cost to America is simply too high therefore, Congress has the power to mandate that women swallow the pill at least 3 times a day, and to require even Catholics to use birth control. Not only this, but Congress has the constitutional power to require women to get abortions unless they make 5 million dollars a year.

After all, it is in the nation's interest to eliminate all costs.

yup thats exactly where mandating that people get health insurance will lead to.

SO much worse than the old way where you could only get insurance if they were pretty sure you wouldnt need it and if you DID they would try their damnedest to take it away from you.

It's kind of like how since we're mandated to buy car insurance we now need to drive at 100mph at all times and run over any pedestrians we see, on pain of death.

Totally like that...

[Ashmoria]

yup thats exactly where mandating that people get health insurance will lead to.

SO much worse than the old way where you could only get insurance if they were pretty sure you wouldnt need it and if you DID they would try their damnedest to take it away from you.

It's kind of like how since we're mandated to buy car insurance we now need to drive at 100mph at all times and run over any pedestrians we see, on pain of death.

Totally like that...

totally!

it was SO much better in the old days when getting on the road was a financial crapshoot where you could expect that if you got into an accident the other guy wouldnt have insurance. back then we drove CAREFULLY so we wouldnt get into an accident that would leave us financially destitute.

[Deus Malum]

It's kind of like how since we're mandated to buy car insurance we now need to drive at 100mph at all times and run over any pedestrians we see, on pain of death.

Totally like that...

totally!

it was SO much better in the old days when getting on the road was a financial crapshoot where you could expect that if you got into an accident the other guy wouldnt have insurance. back then we drove CAREFULLY so we wouldnt get into an accident that would leave us financially destitute.

Yeah, I totally want to return to the days where some schmuck can rear end me and leave me with several grand in repairs because he has no insurance coverage. We can't have government intruding on our right to pay out the nose for car repairs.

Just like we can't have government intruding on health care, especially Medicare [Note: there are Tea Partiers WHO ACTUALLY SAY THIS]

[Ashmoria]

totally!

it was SO much better in the old days when getting on the road was a financial crapshoot where you could expect that if you got into an accident the other guy wouldnt have insurance. back then we drove CAREFULLY so we wouldnt get into an accident that would leave us financially destitute.

Yeah, I totally want to return to the days where some schmuck can rear end me and leave me with several grand in repairs because he has no insurance coverage. We can't have government intruding on our right to pay out the nose for car repairs.

Just like we can't have government intruding on health care, especially Medicare [Note: there are Tea Partiers WHO ACTUALLY SAY THIS]

oh deus dont make me rant! there are several extreme conservative republican/teapartiers who advocate PRIVATISING MEDICARE after spending all last summer scared to death that hcr was going to take it away. and the same "keep your government hands off my medicare" people are working to get them elected!

[Deus Malum]

Yeah, I totally want to return to the days where some schmuck can rear end me and leave me with several grand in repairs because he has no insurance coverage. We can't have government intruding on our right to pay out the nose for car repairs.

Just like we can't have government intruding on health care, especially Medicare [Note: there are Tea Partiers WHO ACTUALLY SAY THIS]

oh deus dont make me rant! there are several extreme conservative republican/teapartiers who advocate PRIVATISING MEDICARE after spending all last summer scared to death that hcr was going to take it away. and the same "keep your government hands off my medicare" people are working to get them elected!

O_o That is fucking scary.

[Yootwopia]

Food, clothes, shelter are all delivered more efficiently, at better prices, in greater quantity, at better quality, by private, for profit businesses. Like healthcare, they are all necessary products for our survival.

Yeah the point of the first three is that they rely on our continued and extensive consumption of them to make a business profitable. Insurance companies rely on the exact opposite.