NationStates

Occupied Deutschland wrote:

Revoltaire wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette

Whatever that law is, it is clearly unconstitutional. The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that requiring students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was a violation of the 1th amendment and freedom of speech. Bring a copy of that ruling to the next school board meeting, speak up and see what happens.

There IS NO REQUIREMENT!

Hitchensland wrote:It's not about being stupid, it's about the loophole. The school doesn't have the right to define which religions are acceptable and which are not if it's going to maintain that rule.

Altimaea wrote:

Hitchensland wrote:It's not about being stupid, it's about the loophole. The school doesn't have the right to define which religions are acceptable and which are not if it's going to maintain that rule.

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

Altimaea wrote:If you dont like it here, go somewhere else.

Hitchensland wrote:

Altimaea wrote:
As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Hitchensland wrote:

Altimaea wrote:
As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Strykla wrote:

Hitchensland wrote:
It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Try to present this argument to several hundred well-informed individuals in the House of Representatives, Senate, Executive Branch, and Supreme Court. I'm sure they'll all agree with you, especially when that amendment was made to the Pledge several decades ago.

Hitchensland wrote:

Altimaea wrote:
As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Revoltaire wrote:

Hitchensland wrote:
It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Exactly.

Think about it this way. How would Christians feel if the Pledge said "One Nation under NO God", or "One Nation under Buddha", or "One Nation under Vishnu", or "One Nation under Mohammad"? Shit would hit the fan. Even though the phrase makes no reference of preference for a specific religion, it still has religious meaning. References to God can exclude people who don't believe in God, just as references to Buddha, Vishnu, or Mohammad would exclude people who don't believe in any of those people.

Also, how do you define a religion, and what makes some things a religion, but not Atheism? Is it a belief in a God? Many Buddhists don't believe in any god, but Buddhism is still recognized as a religion by the US gov't. A very large number of Unitarian Universalists are explicitly atheistic, but the gov't still recognizes Unitarian Universalism as a religion. While a large number of atheists ARE irreligious, atheism does not automatically make a person irreligious, and atheists are entitled to the same freedom of religion - or lack there of - as any religious person

Vesintor wrote:In the state of Virginia, students are required to stand and say the pledge unless they have an exemption from their parents. I am 17 and I not only disagree with the wording in the pledge of allegiance (one nation, under god); I also refuse to pledge my allegiance to the United States government. I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition). My parents have refused to sign an exemption because they don't agree with my views.

I will not just stand up, I have dignity and a right to practice civil disobedience. I don't have any respect for the flag or this country, and I won't stand up for it. I suggest students in a similar predicament to sit down, don't give in just because people tell you to. Now I may be facing some sort of disciplinary action from the school for refusing to recite a pledge; it's the land of the free and home of the brave I suppose.

Here's an excerpt from the Virginia Senate Bill 1331:

Pledge of Allegiance. Requires (i) all students to be required to learn the Pledge of Allegiance and to demonstrate such knowledge and (ii) each school board to require the daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in each classroom of the school division and to ensure that an American flag is in place in each classroom. Each school board must determine the appropriate time during the school day for the recitation of the Pledge. During the Pledge of Allegiance, students must either stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability. School board codes of conduct shall apply to disruptive behavior during the recitation of the Pledge in the same manner as provided for other circumstances of similar behavior. The Office of the Attorney General must intervene on behalf of local school boards and must provide legal defense of these provisions.

Here's a link to the full text.

I do apologize for the verbose nature of this post, but I felt that this community was the right place to share my plight.

Altimaea wrote:atheism is not a religion

Hitchensland wrote:

Revoltaire wrote:
Exactly.

Think about it this way. How would Christians feel if the Pledge said "One Nation under NO God", or "One Nation under Buddha", or "One Nation under Vishnu", or "One Nation under Mohammad"? Shit would hit the fan. Even though the phrase makes no reference of preference for a specific religion, it still has religious meaning. References to God can exclude people who don't believe in God, just as references to Buddha, Vishnu, or Mohammad would exclude people who don't believe in any of those people.

Also, how do you define a religion, and what makes some things a religion, but not Atheism? Is it a belief in a God? Many Buddhists don't believe in any god, but Buddhism is still recognized as a religion by the US gov't. A very large number of Unitarian Universalists are explicitly atheistic, but the gov't still recognizes Unitarian Universalism as a religion. While a large number of atheists ARE irreligious, atheism does not automatically make a person irreligious, and atheists are entitled to the same freedom of religion - or lack there of - as any religious person

It would be wrong for it to say "Under anything". Even "under no God." It would be just as wrong to have it say "under no God", as it would to have it say "under God." I'm not advocating placing a replacement word. If it was completely removed, it wouldn't be referring to any religion, or even atheism. Just because it doesn't mention God, doesn't mean it would be atheistic, it would simply be secular.

Revoltaire wrote:

Hitchensland wrote:
It would be wrong for it to say "Under anything". Even "under no God." It would be just as wrong to have it say "under no God", as it would to have it say "under God." I'm not advocating placing a replacement word. If it was completely removed, it wouldn't be referring to any religion, or even atheism. Just because it doesn't mention God, doesn't mean it would be atheistic, it would simply be secular.

Thats exactly my point. My post was actually directed at Altimaea and not you

Altimaea wrote:atheism is not a religion

Brewdomia wrote:The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

L3 Communications wrote:

Brewdomia wrote:The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

I just stand up and look bored tbh.

Brewdomia wrote:The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

Auremena wrote:

L3 Communications wrote:I just stand up and look bored tbh.

Same. Last year though, I had an ultraconservative christian teacher for 2nd period, who hated me for no reason, and made us all say the pledge one by one.

L3 Communications wrote:

Auremena wrote:Same. Last year though, I had an ultraconservative christian teacher for 2nd period, who hated me for no reason, and made us all say the pledge one by one.

You should have turned her in that is against the law. Students cannot be compelled to say the Pledge.

Vesintor wrote:In the state of Virginia, students are required to stand and say the pledge unless they have an exemption from their parents. I am 17 and I not only disagree with the wording in the pledge of allegiance (one nation, under god);

Vesintor wrote:I also refuse to pledge my allegiance to the United States government. I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition).

Vesintor wrote: I will not just stand up, I have dignity and a right to practice civil disobedienceI suggest students in a similar predicament to sit down, don't give in just because people tell you to. Now I may be facing some sort of disciplinary action from the school for refusing to recite a pledge; it's the land of the free and home of the brave I suppose.

however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability. School board codes of conduct shall apply to disruptive behavior during the recitation of the Pledge in the same manner as provided for other circumstances of similar behavior. The Office of the Attorney General must intervene on behalf of local school boards and must provide legal defense of these provisions.

Hitchensland wrote:

Altimaea wrote:
As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

North Caucasus wrote:Taking the pledge is really nothing more than a show of respect, if you took 2 seconds to get your crooked tampon in order you would realize that many people have been killed and hurt for you to have the luxurie of even having an education. Granted America may not be the best nation, it's certainly far from the worst. What does amaze me about your argument is how you haven't grasped the fact that schools make some of the worst rules. They might suck but you have to follow them just like everybody else(unless you get written confirmation in this case) I hope you realize the amount of disrespect you've shown to the countless numbers of people who worked hard for you, because to be quite blunt I would rather be a pacifist then even run the risk of being injured knowing that you reside in our borders crying about how something isn't fair.