Students forced to recite Pledge of Allegiance, VA

[Revoltaire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette

Whatever that law is, it is clearly unconstitutional. The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that requiring students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was a violation of the 1th amendment and freedom of speech. Bring a copy of that ruling to the next school board meeting, speak up and see what happens.

There IS NO REQUIREMENT!

The OP stated that even though the State law doesn't require it, the school's policy as to how they implement it DOES, so they school is still in violation of this ruling.

[Altimaea]

It's not about being stupid, it's about the loophole. The school doesn't have the right to define which religions are acceptable and which are not if it's going to maintain that rule.

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

[Hitchensland]

It's not about being stupid, it's about the loophole. The school doesn't have the right to define which religions are acceptable and which are not if it's going to maintain that rule.

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

[Auremena]

If you dont like it here, go somewhere else.

I don't like it here at all either, but I don't have the opportunity to leave. I've been told to leave the country here for not reciting the pledge here, but I don't have the money, or the high school diploma yet. I am only 17.

[Occupied Deutschland]

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

wrong, the government isn't supposed to make a law demanding you practice a particular religion, or restricting you from practicing your own. Saying 'God' in the pledge of allegiance is a way of reffering to a higher power. Be it YHWY, the god of Muhammed, the Christian God, Buddha, Gaia, Vishnael, Oprah, or whatever you hold great. Atheists can hold their smug sense of superiority up as "god".

[Hitchensland]

A higher power is a religious ideology. Therefore it is unsecular.

[Strykla]

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Try to present this argument to several hundred well-informed individuals in the House of Representatives, Senate, Executive Branch, and Supreme Court. I'm sure they'll all agree with you, especially when that amendment was made to the Pledge several decades ago.

[Hitchensland]

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Try to present this argument to several hundred well-informed individuals in the House of Representatives, Senate, Executive Branch, and Supreme Court. I'm sure they'll all agree with you, especially when that amendment was made to the Pledge several decades ago.

First of all, this country was, and still is run by insane Christians, so it's no surprise they saw nothing wrong with it. And second, you do realize the ONLY reason that was ever added was because we were basically trying to show off by saying "Oh were better than those Godless Communists!" We were basically saying God was on our side, and he would help us smite those evil, nasty atheists in Russia.

[Revoltaire]

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Exactly.

Think about it this way. How would Christians feel if the Pledge said "One Nation under NO God", or "One Nation under Buddha", or "One Nation under Vishnu", or "One Nation under Mohammad"? Shit would hit the fan. Even though the phrase makes no reference of preference for a specific religion, it still has religious meaning. References to God can exclude people who don't believe in God, just as references to Buddha, Vishnu, or Mohammad would exclude people who don't believe in any of those people.

Also, how do you define a religion, and what makes some things a religion, but not Atheism? Is it a belief in a God? Many Buddhists don't believe in any god, but Buddhism is still recognized as a religion by the US gov't. A very large number of Unitarian Universalists are explicitly atheistic, but the gov't still recognizes Unitarian Universalism as a religion. While a large number of atheists ARE irreligious, atheism does not automatically make a person irreligious, and atheists are entitled to the same freedom of religion - or lack there of - as any religious person

[Hitchensland]

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Exactly.

Think about it this way. How would Christians feel if the Pledge said "One Nation under NO God", or "One Nation under Buddha", or "One Nation under Vishnu", or "One Nation under Mohammad"? Shit would hit the fan. Even though the phrase makes no reference of preference for a specific religion, it still has religious meaning. References to God can exclude people who don't believe in God, just as references to Buddha, Vishnu, or Mohammad would exclude people who don't believe in any of those people.

Also, how do you define a religion, and what makes some things a religion, but not Atheism? Is it a belief in a God? Many Buddhists don't believe in any god, but Buddhism is still recognized as a religion by the US gov't. A very large number of Unitarian Universalists are explicitly atheistic, but the gov't still recognizes Unitarian Universalism as a religion. While a large number of atheists ARE irreligious, atheism does not automatically make a person irreligious, and atheists are entitled to the same freedom of religion - or lack there of - as any religious person

It would be wrong for it to say "Under anything". Even "under no God." It would be just as wrong to have it say "under no God", as it would to have it say "under God." I'm not advocating placing a replacement word. If it was completely removed, it wouldn't be referring to any religion, or even atheism. Just because it doesn't mention God, doesn't mean it would be atheistic, it would simply be secular.

[United Gackle]

In the state of Virginia, students are required to stand and say the pledge unless they have an exemption from their parents. I am 17 and I not only disagree with the wording in the pledge of allegiance (one nation, under god); I also refuse to pledge my allegiance to the United States government. I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition). My parents have refused to sign an exemption because they don't agree with my views.

I will not just stand up, I have dignity and a right to practice civil disobedience. I don't have any respect for the flag or this country, and I won't stand up for it. I suggest students in a similar predicament to sit down, don't give in just because people tell you to. Now I may be facing some sort of disciplinary action from the school for refusing to recite a pledge; it's the land of the free and home of the brave I suppose.

Here's an excerpt from the Virginia Senate Bill 1331:

Pledge of Allegiance. Requires (i) all students to be required to learn the Pledge of Allegiance and to demonstrate such knowledge and (ii) each school board to require the daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in each classroom of the school division and to ensure that an American flag is in place in each classroom. Each school board must determine the appropriate time during the school day for the recitation of the Pledge. During the Pledge of Allegiance, students must either stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability. School board codes of conduct shall apply to disruptive behavior during the recitation of the Pledge in the same manner as provided for other circumstances of similar behavior. The Office of the Attorney General must intervene on behalf of local school boards and must provide legal defense of these provisions.

Here's a link to the full text.

I do apologize for the verbose nature of this post, but I felt that this community was the right place to share my plight.

Well then, your not an American.....

[Tahar Joblis]

I believe I have insisted on reciting the original Pledge word for word... like this:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

atheism is not a religion

Bzzzzt!

It is not at all even unusual to hold the lack of existence of a God as an article of faith. Atheists enjoy protection of their beliefs and practices just as much as monotheists.

[Revoltaire]

Exactly.

Think about it this way. How would Christians feel if the Pledge said "One Nation under NO God", or "One Nation under Buddha", or "One Nation under Vishnu", or "One Nation under Mohammad"? Shit would hit the fan. Even though the phrase makes no reference of preference for a specific religion, it still has religious meaning. References to God can exclude people who don't believe in God, just as references to Buddha, Vishnu, or Mohammad would exclude people who don't believe in any of those people.

Also, how do you define a religion, and what makes some things a religion, but not Atheism? Is it a belief in a God? Many Buddhists don't believe in any god, but Buddhism is still recognized as a religion by the US gov't. A very large number of Unitarian Universalists are explicitly atheistic, but the gov't still recognizes Unitarian Universalism as a religion. While a large number of atheists ARE irreligious, atheism does not automatically make a person irreligious, and atheists are entitled to the same freedom of religion - or lack there of - as any religious person

It would be wrong for it to say "Under anything". Even "under no God." It would be just as wrong to have it say "under no God", as it would to have it say "under God." I'm not advocating placing a replacement word. If it was completely removed, it wouldn't be referring to any religion, or even atheism. Just because it doesn't mention God, doesn't mean it would be atheistic, it would simply be secular.

Thats exactly my point. My post was actually directed at Altimaea and not you

[Hitchensland]

It would be wrong for it to say "Under anything". Even "under no God." It would be just as wrong to have it say "under no God", as it would to have it say "under God." I'm not advocating placing a replacement word. If it was completely removed, it wouldn't be referring to any religion, or even atheism. Just because it doesn't mention God, doesn't mean it would be atheistic, it would simply be secular.

Thats exactly my point. My post was actually directed at Altimaea and not you

Oh my bad dude.

[L3 Communications]

atheism is not a religion

The law disagrees.

[Brewdomia]

The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

[L3 Communications]

The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

I just stand up and look bored tbh.

[Auremena]

The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

I just stand up and look bored tbh.

Same. Last year though, I had an ultraconservative christian teacher for 2nd period, who hated me for no reason, and made us all say the pledge one by one.

[Mahaj]

The Pledge is in the morning, and nobody says it lol cause we're all sleeping.

But wouldn't a hundred people saying it wake you up? SURELY SOMEONE is awake.

[L3 Communications]

I just stand up and look bored tbh.

Same. Last year though, I had an ultraconservative christian teacher for 2nd period, who hated me for no reason, and made us all say the pledge one by one.

You should have turned him in that is against the law. Students cannot be compelled to say the Pledge.

[Auremena]

Same. Last year though, I had an ultraconservative christian teacher for 2nd period, who hated me for no reason, and made us all say the pledge one by one.

You should have turned her in that is against the law. Students cannot be compelled to say the Pledge.

I should have, along with the story she told us about how also had her twin sister take her driver's licence test, cause she failed. Meh, she's Kentukyen, she likely married her cousin.

[New new nebraska]

In the state of Virginia, students are required to stand and say the pledge unless they have an exemption from their parents. I am 17 and I not only disagree with the wording in the pledge of allegiance (one nation, under god);

You are not obligated to say that part

I also refuse to pledge my allegiance to the United States government. I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition).

Then you deserve no recourse in its courts or the privledge of its education system. (well more because of "I don't have any respect for the flag or this country, and I won't stand up for it." )And BTW prohibition has been repealled.

I will not just stand up, I have dignity and a right to practice civil disobedienceI suggest students in a similar predicament to sit down, don't give in just because people tell you to. Now I may be facing some sort of disciplinary action from the school for refusing to recite a pledge; it's the land of the free and home of the brave I suppose.

Yes this point is pretty valid.

however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability. School board codes of conduct shall apply to disruptive behavior during the recitation of the Pledge in the same manner as provided for other circumstances of similar behavior. The Office of the Attorney General must intervene on behalf of local school boards and must provide legal defense of these provisions.

You might be able to get away with it. You have the right to disobey as much as your parents. Although diobey is the wrong word. You basically don't have to say the pledge. Show your school the law.

[North Caucasus]

Taking the pledge is really nothing more than a show of respect, if you took 2 seconds to get your crooked tampon in order you would realize that many people have been killed and hurt for you to have the luxurie of even having an education. Granted America may not be the best nation, it's certainly far from the worst. What does amaze me about your argument is how you haven't grasped the fact that schools make some of the worst rules. They might suck but you have to follow them just like everybody else(unless you get written confirmation in this case) I hope you realize the amount of disrespect you've shown to the countless numbers of people who worked hard for you, because to be quite blunt I would rather be a pacifist then even run the risk of being injured knowing that you reside in our borders crying about how something isn't fair.

[Altimaea]

As long as you can opt out its not forcing you. Also, the pledge of allegiance does not define which religion it is talking about (although one can inference) and atheism is not a religion, so the only problem here is that shit that lives in America yet hates every thing about it. If you dont like it here, go somewhere else. Just dont expect to be able to spout the same shit in another country.

It has "God" in it, which means it is favoring monotheism over other religions, or even the absence of religion. It doesn't matter that's it's not specific about which religion, it's still favoring religion over irreligion, thus compromising the government's religious neutrality. The government is not supposed to favor any form of religious concept, no matter how generic or widely accepted. The government is supposed to be completely neutral and not mention it at all.

Well you cant very well not have religion because then you are favoring atheists and the like. Paradox. Besides the pledge of allegiance ISNT part of the government.

[Revoltaire]

Taking the pledge is really nothing more than a show of respect, if you took 2 seconds to get your crooked tampon in order you would realize that many people have been killed and hurt for you to have the luxurie of even having an education. Granted America may not be the best nation, it's certainly far from the worst. What does amaze me about your argument is how you haven't grasped the fact that schools make some of the worst rules. They might suck but you have to follow them just like everybody else(unless you get written confirmation in this case) I hope you realize the amount of disrespect you've shown to the countless numbers of people who worked hard for you, because to be quite blunt I would rather be a pacifist then even run the risk of being injured knowing that you reside in our borders crying about how something isn't fair.

This is a load of crock. I have no obligation to show anyone respect, and neither does anyone else. And the "show respect to your military cause they are protecting your freedoms" and "respect you flag for what it represents" lines are the same kind of thing. What I find worthy of receiving my respect is defined by ME and ONLY ME.

One of the biggest problems I have with most Americans today is that we found it okay for Founding Fathers to question rules placed on them by the British and to rebel against them during the American Revolution, but now that the revolution is over, we are just supposed to blindly obey the government and rebelling against the rules is "disrespectful". Anyone who thinks that is a hypocrite. Questioning the rules is an essential part of the American founding identity. To quote Ralph Waldo Emerson: "No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature."