Students forced to recite Pledge of Allegiance, VA

[Norstal]

So, if I may conclude from all the other posts, the OP is essentially bitching about things that are legal.

Nice. Vesintor should read the whole bill next time before posting threads like this.

[Allanea]

Exactly. If they're trying to make him, therefore, he can take it to court and win easily.

He's 17. He has no rights if the parents won't sign the exemption.
Or you go to the court, pay court fees, and learn that.

Supreme Court precedent states high school students have First Amendment rights.

[Nobel Hobos]

Edit that out before a mod sees it ...

[The Evil Reich]

however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds

Shapow! Also, um, freedom of speech. To force someone to say the Pledge of Allegience seems somehow un-American to me, but then again, so do the Patriot Act, Alien and Sedition Acts, and I'm sure I could find plenty of others if I needed to. How is it the American government can be so un-American?

I love America, that's exactly why I'm with you on this issue.

Sometimes getting teachers to do what the statute says and let you sit quietly is easier said than done. I certainly had a few who tried to pressure us into saying the pledge and went on a big patriotic guilt trip rant about it if people didn't. Yeah, teachers have free speech too, but they're acting in an official capacity, and this was bullying high school students who didn't want to say the pledge, not explaining to kindergartners who hadn't learned it yet.

[Sierra Lobo]

Under existing legal precedent HS students are covered under free speech rights. He can sue.

Good thing he lives in a country that recognizes the free speech rights of students, eh?

huh? why is the end all arguments falls under free speech? He could challenge the VA state authority on this? He was not gagged?

So like a 15 y.o ..... who cant buy cigarettes and alcohol due to current laws is actually impinging on my right of free speech if i dont agree with it, and nullify my freedom of expression since i am disallowed to partake on them?

[Nullivan]

When my friend moved to America his new school tried to make him say the pledge.
He sang God Save The Queen over the principals tannoy instead.

[Supreme Marshal Petan]

Listen, junior (I wince at that consider I'm turning 21 this Thursday! YAY!). Obviously this government isn't perfect, and I certainly agree with the legalization of drugs. But I still love my country. I agree that marriage equality should be allowed and isn't, but I still love my country. And the list goes on and on. There are many faults with my country, like there is with any other, but if your belief is that I whine and bitch, shake your head and say "nu-uh," and talk about how horrible this country is, than seriously get the fuck out.

This isn't a 'us versus them' mentality, I never liked Bush and the ethnocentrism he promoted. I just hate snobbish like turds who think they are being badasses. When in reality they are just being douches.

Some of us are trying to make it better, and we don't need the likes of you.

When did I ever say that all I was going to do was whine and bitch? As soon as I bring up a valid point, what is the first thing I see from you? "NANANA WHINING FAGGOT GET OUT OF THE CUNTRY IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!"

How does this solve anything? We need to bring issues like this to the table instead of just accepting it as part of life and ignoring anyone that talks about it. How else will shit get changed if don't discuss it, you ignorant cunt?

How about you open your mind a little instead of dismissing any notions of a flaw in the your government as bitching?

Things are VERY wrong and have been for a long time in this country.

Oh please.

I never said I had any problem with discussing it, just those who bitch about horrible it is. Discussion doesn't bring change, action does. I already know things have been 'very wrong' in this country, there is always a problem in every country. It's the nature of society, duh.

You obviously didn't read my comment, so I won't even bother really replying to yours.

[Allanea]

huh? why is the end all arguments falls under free speech? He could challenge the VA state authority on this? He was not gagged?

Under existing legal precedent, a high school student cannot be required to salute the flag or say the pledge.

That is what the law says. You cannot claim that the student has no rights when the Supreme Court has clearly, repeatedly said otherwise.

[Norstal]

Under existing legal precedent HS students are covered under free speech rights. He can sue.

Good thing he lives in a country that recognizes the free speech rights of students, eh?

huh? why is the end all arguments falls under free speech? He could challenge the VA state authority on this? He was not gagged?

So like a 15 y.o ..... who cant buy cigarettes and alcohol due to current laws is actually impinging on my right of free speech if i dont agree with it, and nullify my freedom of expression since i am disallowed to partake on them?

Yes? You can do that. You'll look..sensational (ala Tea Party style), but yes you can do that.

[Vesintor]

Edit that out before a mod sees it ...

Calling people ignorant cunts isn't exactly the most awesome form of civilized debate ever.

I only brought ad hominem and namecalling into it because he did the same.

I just hate snobbish like turds who think they are being badasses. When in reality they are just being douches.

Way to cherrypick.

Nevertheless, it doesn't invalidate my point.

[Newmanistan]

He's 17. He has no rights if the parents won't sign the exemption.
Or you go to the court, pay court fees, and learn that.

Supreme Court precedent states high school students have First Amendment rights.

Precedents you speak of more then likely have parents that are along for the ride, which makes it different. Here, the parents aren't.

[Allanea]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the precedent.

Start here.

[Sierra Lobo]

Here is a report of the courts clearing the reciting of the pledge of allegiance


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... n-schools/

go hire a lawyer if you dont agree

[Pope Joan]

You might be able to get some advice and support from Mennonites (not the VA conference, who are too conservative, but try Washington Fellowship in DC, or Shalom or Family of Hope churches in Harrisonburg)
http://washington.mcc.org/
in DC

We have opposed saying the Pledge for a long time.
http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/fla ... tions.html
http://www.thirdway.com/menno/glossary.asp?ID=73
http://www.themennonite.org/issues/12-3 ... nal_pledge

Unfortunately, the guy Myers who recently lost his VA case on this issue was a Mennonite http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00895.html

[Allanea]

Sure. Schools reciting the pledge is OK. Nobody is arguing with that.

It is not however okay to force students to participate.

[Newmanistan]

Here is a report of the courts clearing the reciting of the pledge of allegiance


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... n-schools/

go hire a lawyer if you dont agree

Skimmed through article....

In these instance the parents were along for the ride.

Therefore it is NOT A PRECEDENT to what the facts would be in this case, which continues to be my argument.

[Mektar]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the precedent.

Start here.

Haha, I was just reading that. West Virginia v Barnette in the lower right corner seemed most useful.

[Sierra Lobo]

Here is a report of the courts clearing the reciting of the pledge of allegiance


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... n-schools/

go hire a lawyer if you dont agree

Skimmed through article....

In these instance the parents were along for the ride.

Therefore it is NOT A PRECEDENT to what the facts would be in this case, which continues to be my argument.

I agree.... but if the courts ruled against the parents who have legal standing, how will they most likely rule on a minor whose parents have stated that they want their kid to recite the allegiance.

Anyway he could try and go and assert his rights.

[Vesintor]

Oh please.

I never said I had any problem with discussing it, just those who bitch about horrible it is. Discussion doesn't bring change, action does. I already know things have been 'very wrong' in this country, there is always a problem in every country. It's the nature of society, duh.

You obviously didn't read my comment, so I won't even bother really replying to yours.

You still have failed to address this:

Drug prohibition in this country has left our prisons overflowing with innocent people, that have harmed no one.

(2007) According to the American Corrections Association, the average daily cost per state prison inmate per day in the US is $67.55. State prisons held 253,300 inmates for drug offenses in 2007. That means states spent approximately $17,110,415 per day to imprison drug offenders, or $6,245,301,475 per year.

Source:
American Correctional Association, 2006 Directory of Adult and Juvenile Correctional Departments, Institutions, Agencies and Probation and Parole Authorities, 67th Edition (Alexandria, VA: ACA, 2006), p. 16; Sabol, William J., PhD, and West, Heather C., Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, December 2008), NCJ224280, p. 21, Appendix Table 10.

Do you have any idea the suffering innocent people are going through everyday because of prohibition?

The government owns you, they tell you what you can and cannot put in your body. That is oppression, plain and simple.

Listen, junior (I wince at that consider I'm turning 21 this Thursday! YAY!). Obviously this government isn't perfect, and I certainly agree with the legalization of drugs. But I still love my country. I agree that marriage equality should be allowed and isn't, but I still love my country. And the list goes on and on. There are many faults with my country, like there is with any other, but if your belief is that I whine and bitch, shake your head and say "nu-uh," and talk about how horrible this country is, than seriously get the fuck out.

If the best you can do in response to someone posting a cited fact is to call it bitching and whining, then it's obvious you have no argument.

[Angleter]

Well until that certain age, Virginia doesn't take you as able to make a conscientious decision about this and so it goes to your parents. Just put up with it until then.

And prohibition has been repealed, and is by a great measure well short of being the worst thing Uncle Sam's done.

[Vesintor]

Well until that certain age, Virginia doesn't take you as able to make a conscientious decision about this and so it goes to your parents. Just put up with it until then.

And prohibition has been repealed, and is by a great measure well short of being the worst thing Uncle Sam's done.

Prohibition has been repealed? What country are you living in?

I'm going to go sell some crack by the police station and see how that goes...

[Reploid Productions]

<snip>
I just hate snobbish like turds who think they are being badasses. When in reality they are just being douches.

Some of us are trying to make it better, and we don't need the likes of you.

<snip>
the first thing I see from you? "NANANA WHINING FAGGOT GET OUT OF THE CUNTRY IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!"

<snip>
How else will shit get changed if don't discuss it, you ignorant cunt?

How about you open your mind a little instead of dismissing any notions of a flaw in the your government as bitching?
<snip>

Both of you need to cut the flamebaiting and outright flaming, and you need to cut it out now. I've been following the thread and behavior like this is completely unacceptable. I'm not going to give out any *** official *** warnings as you both appear to be relatively new to the site, however I urge you to knock it off and become acquainted with the site's rules.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[New Vulshuck State]

I think if you don't wish to say the pledge you don't have to, But you should at least stand and be silent its respectful at least and this courtesy should be for the flag of any nation during a anthem or pledge. You don't have to recite the words but respect a sovereign nations flag and its fellow citizens. That's just my two cents Oh and I do applaud you stand up for what you believe in even if I don't agree with it that makes you more of a American than most.

[Vesintor]

Gotcha.

I'll tone it down.

[Allanea]

Therefore it is NOT A PRECEDENT to what the facts would be in this case, which continues to be my argument.

The point is, it's not true under law that pre-18 individuals have no rights.

It's possible [not likely IMO] he could lose the case, but it would not be completely out of bounds for him to sue.

You must understand I disagree with Velsinor's political beliefs. I believe America is awesome, and were I an American student of the appropriate age, I would say the pledge. But it is because I believe in American values and freedoms thus I support his right not to say:

I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.