Don't Free Tibet

[Kazomal]

Tibetan people are probably a lot better off being ruled by the Chinese

Dunno. I think that people should rule themselves, and not be ruled by someone else.

No one "rules themself," we are all ruled by someone else. Whether it is a member of your mostly imaginary ethnic group or not (not a dig at the Tibetans, I meant that all ethnic, racial, national, zodiac sign, etc, and other "group identities" are mostly made-up), the leaders will exploit the citizens. Just because we're both Tibetans doesn't mean we think the same, and doesn't mean I will agree with the policies of a Tibetan ruler any more than a Chinese one. I am still being ruled by someone else.

[Nobel Hobos]

I actually think that Tibet should be made free. China has shown countless times of violence against the Tibetan people, mostly because they continue to disregard China's policy against religion. Sure, the Dalai Lama is a little annoying, but that gives you no real reason to state that Tibet shouldn't be free.

"Free" and "theocracy" don't go together.

China doesn't have a particularly consistent policy on religion. Look at how they favoured one Kamapa Lama over the other. Or how they are so harsh on Falun Gong, yet have no problem with people building Taoist or Buddhist shrines.

I think what really worries them is anything which looks like it could grow into an alternative government.

[Qwcasd]

We took over Texas and the rest of the Spanish lands north of the Rio Grande, I see no reason why China can't do the same to Tibet. Besides, they're building roads, infrastructure, and economic output in what was previously a backward theocratic shithole, so...

MIght have been a "theocratic shithole" but at least it was free. Plus, America take over of Texas and the West didn't suppress a single religion or ethnic group, except I guess for the Indians, and I would say that they were better off before US control.

[Strategion]

I don't think you understood it. A nation where people are forced to remain in one place will identify with that place more than the nation as a whole. Easy enough to understand?...I didn't say a word about Henan seceding, but instead being reluctant to look beyond its own borders for anything but a power grab in the event of a collapse of central government.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't migration in China pretty much freely allowed within provinces? I don't think someone from Shanghai has any particular loyalty to Shanghai above that to China...

And these civil wars are rarely quick and painless. They last for decades, at least. Plenty of time, if Western powers and India are still around, to easily secure the independence of certain locations, including Tibet.

Faced with an outside threat, people will naturally set aside their differences against a common enemy. Dynastic rule ended when Sun Yat Sen established the Republic of China, which immediately collapsed upon his death. There was unrest, infighting among warlords, fighting between the KMT and the CCP, but the moment Japan invaded in WWII they unified to defend China.

I'm also skeptical that civil war will actually happen in mainland China if the central government collapses. Lack of unity yes, but not all-out civil war. Excluding the troublesome border regions, there aren't any significant differences between Chinese provinces. Everyone speaks Chinese, practically everyone is Han Chinese, there's no difference in religions, etc. What exactly are the provinces going to fight about? Perhaps resources...but how would they do it? Eg Henan can't annex Guangdong or attempt a power grab, the provinces don't even have separate armies.

[Panarctica]

_

[Kazomal]

We took over Texas and the rest of the Spanish lands north of the Rio Grande, I see no reason why China can't do the same to Tibet. Besides, they're building roads, infrastructure, and economic output in what was previously a backward theocratic shithole, so...

MIght have been a "theocratic shithole" but at least it was free. Plus, America take over of Texas and the West didn't suppress a single religion or ethnic group, except I guess for the Indians, and I would say that they were better off before US control.

Many ethnic groups were genocided under US control, and those that weren't were forced onto barren reservations, where a lack of capital and the destruction of civil and societal cohesion damaged their cultures in ways that are still being felt today. Indian reservations are generally economically depressed, and suffer from a host of social ills.


Back to the Dali Lama, though, I had heard some pretty terrible things about him, and the things his government-in-exile did/supported. I don't know what of this is bunk, and what was done by past Dali Lamas, though.

Either way, the Chinese government's rule is not good for the Tibetans. But as I said, oppression is oppression, even if the guy oppressing you is a member of your "ethnic group."

And even if the PRC is so bad, they are pretty bad for all of China, I am not intimately familiar enough with the history and culture of the region to make calls like "this province is China, that province should be independent, etc"

[Skira island]

NSG, I have an opinion I thought I'd share. I do not support Tibetan independence, and think the Dalai Lama is totally self-serving and two-faced. Additionally, as far as I can tell, the Tibetan people are probably a lot better off being ruled by the Chinese, and the Dalai Lama doesn't care about freeing his people so much as he wants his palace back.

Here's a link for some info:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4111

This is one of the biggest flame baits I've seen in some time.

The concept of Buddhism is to rid your self of want, he barely ever lived in it, he would wander throughout Tibet trying to bring happiness to all before this came about, anyone could live in it with him, the building was simply a huge place of worship. The Chinese have now turned it into a museum, which ridicules the Buddhist culture.

Also the website notice the title skeptoid, implying skeptic.

The website has things regarding UFO's, Conspiracies, and the paranormal. Try to find a reasonable source or at least more than one source before you make such implications.

[Skira island]

PRC literally moved (or destroyed and rebuilt) cities of several hundred thousand with skyscrapers, highways to make way for the Three Gorges Dam, so just because PRC gives some place infrastructure doesn't mean necessarily the people living there will benefit. Indexes like the GINI generally suggest more stratified incomes than USA and hierarchy within the party is becoming increasingly dynastic, this permitting a sort of gentrification on massive scales; it is far more damning than of say USSR, the question of nepotism in PRC -- peasants still starve while among others obesity is in fact on the rise. Meanwhile there is increasing prosperity in the Persian Gulf as oil remains effectively nationalized -- during detente USA tried to balkanize the Gulf while building up a geopolitically independent PRC, but now Central Asia in between has a choice. It would neither surprise or phase me to see PRC autonomous regions become increasingly autonomous.

They've made tibet into practically their toxic waste dump.

[Strategion]

PRC literally moved (or destroyed and rebuilt) cities of several hundred thousand with skyscrapers, highways to make way for the Three Gorges Dam, so just because PRC gives some place infrastructure doesn't mean necessarily the people living there will benefit. Indexes like the GINI generally suggest more stratified incomes than USA and hierarchy within the party is becoming increasingly dynastic, this permitting a sort of gentrification on massive scales; it is far more damning than of say USSR, the question of nepotism in PRC -- peasants still starve while among others obesity is in fact on the rise. Meanwhile there is increasing prosperity in the Persian Gulf as oil remains effectively nationalized -- during detente USA tried to balkanize the Gulf while building up a geopolitically independent PRC, but now Central Asia in between has a choice. It would neither surprise or phase me to see PRC autonomous regions become increasingly autonomous.

They've made tibet into practically their toxic waste dump.

Erm, they actually treat Tibet better than most of the other provinces. As an autonomous zone Tibet gets tax cuts, extra funding, etc, and the CCP is actively promoting tourism there. Why on earth would they dump waste in Tibet? Source please.

[Augarundus]

You. Don't. Fuck. With. Dalai. Lama.

[New Manvir]

Indeed. Thank you for your voice of sanity.

So annoying all the psuedo-progressives with their "Free Tibet" idiocy.

Tibet as it stood prior to Chinese liberation was one of the most oppressive feudalist regimes on earth. To the extent that when the Chinese liberated Tibet, the Chinese troops themselves had to stop the peasants from utterly killing off all of the elite Tibetan monks in revenge.

The Dalai Lama is a terrible human being, little better than Hitler or Rhee or the like. Stand up for the Tibetans. Stand up for China!

Are you fucking joking! The guy with a hard-on for North Korea is whining about repression in Tibet?

[Buffett and Colbert]

You. Don't. Fuck. With. Dalai. Lama.

[Kent-Norman]

The moment Tibet becomes "Free", India will annex it, since it's weak and helpless without mighty China.

[North Suran]

The moment Tibet becomes "Free", India will annex it, since it's weak and helpless without mighty China.

Because Tibet, having broken-away from the Chinese totalitarian regime, would be easily subjugated by the Indians.

[Dinner Theatre Actors]

The moment Tibet becomes "Free", India will annex it, since it's weak and helpless without mighty China.

Like Sikkim which became a state of India? Or like Nepal or Bhutan which haven't? India has enough oppertunities without annexing Tibet.

However, I agree Tibet independence in a non starter. Won't happen.

[Cybach]

Tibet will just ask for independence a year later

Well, at least the formerly elitist monks (who broke the letter and spirit of the Vinaya in about every sense possible when they were in power, so calling them "monks" is about like calling the Nazis humanitarians).

Hey, hey, hey. The Nazis were humanitarian. Can you recollect any other association who went about mass murder with such grace and finesse? Very little of that brutal painful throat-slitting that was all the roar in the Balkans in the 1940s. Instead a nice humane escort to the showers where after a few deep inhalations a nice serene rest awaited you.

[Jingoist Hippostan]

This is one of the biggest flame baits I've seen in some time.

Oh, gee, I'm sorry my opinion offends you. I must be trolling.

Also the website notice the title skeptoid, implying skeptic.

The website has things regarding UFO's, Conspiracies, and the paranormal. Try to find a reasonable source or at least more than one source before you make such implications.

Are you implying that skepticism is a negative thing? For that matter, I don't see why the presence of UFOs and paranormal things on that site invalidate it. The point of the site is to look into and debunk urban legends and pseudoscience, which means they would deal with more bizarre topics. Besides, you can easily find huge quantities of information on this subject with a google search, I simply selected that link because it was a good overview and wasn't on the extremely Chinese apologist side.

[South Lorenya]

In the current day and age, independent tibet would likely be a democracy; the dalai lama would be respected, of course, but I don't see him holding much more power than Elizabeth II.

[TheFutureKingdom]

FREE TIBET UNWELCOME CHINESE YOUR TIME HAS COME that and the chinese aren't the real chinese AKA Tawian is the true chinese people also China is evil since they enslave their population

[Orlkjestad]

Let's put this little agenda-ist crackpot theory go down to the bottom, along with "The Pope is a Nazi!" and "Obama Is Ebil Alien Sent From Space To Eat Ur Kids!"

[Orlkjestad]

In the current day and age, independent tibet would likely be a democracy; the dalai lama would be respected, of course, but I don't see him holding much more power than Elizabeth II.

^This.

[United Gackle]

They should free tibet, and stop being so cruel to them China should fix their own problems before expanding.

[Monterey Bay Aquarium]

This sounds like Chinese propaganda to me!

[United Gackle]

This sounds like Chinese propaganda to me!

It prolly is, the communsit Chinese are known well for that.

[Aggicificicerous]

In the current day and age, independent tibet would likely be a democracy; the dalai lama would be respected, of course, but I don't see him holding much more power than Elizabeth II.

Seeing as how the lamas were a bunch of theocratic dictators in a feudal hellhole, I very much doubt that. Then again, I tend to be skeptical about people who are paid by the CIA to go around spreading "peace".