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America the Shamed?

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Serguls_Haven
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America the Shamed?

Postby Serguls_Haven » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:38 pm

I am a U.S. American who has pretty much come to the conclusion that to be a U.S. American, or rather, to accept the fact that you -are- a U.S. American, is to accept the shame and guilt that comes with it. The United States, of course, is probably one of the worst institutional, religious and culturally inane places on the map, but I'm not saying that its all bad.

What I am saying, however, that as a non-Tea Party, non-Christian, Non-political party-following-junky is that a lot of the United States' issues arise from actually a troubling and terribly deep insecurity about our identity as a people. We are a very young nation, started by the immigrants that were pretty much not wanted in their original countries, and when we came to the soil that is now the United States, we destroyed first the original cultures that were here (the Native Americans), followed by an outright retaliation of anything related to the Crown (American Revolutionary War), and then in-fighting between our own people over what this country "ought" to be (Civil War).... and after all of that, what we were left with was a broken identity that has never quite recovered. Now, before you bark at me that the United States has a culture, let me explain myself.

The term I am using to describe culture is "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group", as taken from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. The problem with the United States is that as a country, we don't have ancestral roots to an older culture except by those that were brought from abroad. And those cultures, whether they are Irish, African, Jewish, Chinese or Japanese, have all been persecuted at some point in the U.S., to the point that they have been utterly subdued (Slavery, Internment Camps). But every culture needs an identity, and when the country was struggling to make some sort of tie between so many people, only one thing seemed to ring true for everyone: money. The Industrial Revolution is when it really started, at least in my opinion.

This is where my trouble with the Capitalism argument comes in. I don't necessarily agree with the capitalistic model, however, I am also wondering what would really be left in "American" culture if you took away its capitalism. Capitalism IS American Culture, with the exception of a few groups that have specific culture (New York, New Jersey, The South, etc). The only other thing that U.S. Americans would have to define themselves if Capitalism was out of the picture is their red, white and blue patriotism, which, as of late, has also been bringing great shame to me.

Currently, I am dating a Canadian, and living in Japan on study abroad, and every day, a little more of me is depressed by the America that is depicted not just by the world (which is warranted, but still hurtful), but also its own citizens. We are not a country of "people", but a country of individuals who struggle daily to figure out how we fit into this contrived sense of culture.

To me, the only true bond U.S. Americans have is that to be a U.S. American, is to live the shame of being a U.S. American. Maybe I've just become disillusioned.

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Brandenburg-Altmark
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Postby Brandenburg-Altmark » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:41 pm

Who cares about national identity. Identify yourself by your name, not your point of origin.
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South Norwega
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Postby South Norwega » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:43 pm

Serguls_Haven wrote:We are a very young nation

No you're not.

234 years is older than the vast majority of countries.

Especially with a stable system of governance which hasn't changed very much.
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DEFCON-1
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Postby DEFCON-1 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:44 pm

Serguls_Haven wrote:I am a U.S. American who has pretty much come to the conclusion that to be a U.S. American, or rather, to accept the fact that you -are- a U.S. American, is to accept the shame and guilt that comes with it. The United States, of course, is probably one of the worst institutional, religious and culturally inane places on the map, but I'm not saying that its all bad.



Pure ignorance. I got that far and decided you didn't have anything to say that was worth the time to read.

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:48 pm

Serguls_Haven wrote:I am a U.S. American who has pretty much come to the conclusion that to be a U.S. American, or rather, to accept the fact that you -are- a U.S. American, is to accept the shame and guilt that comes with it. The United States, of course, is probably one of the worst institutional, religious and culturally inane places on the map, but I'm not saying that its all bad.

Nope, not even close really.

What I am saying, however, that as a non-Tea Party, non-Christian, Non-political party-following-junky is that a lot of the United States' issues arise from actually a troubling and terribly deep insecurity about our identity as a people. We are a very young nation, started by the immigrants that were pretty much not wanted in their original countries,

More like didn't want to stay in shitty Europe, but do go on.
and when we came to the soil that is now the United States, we destroyed first the original cultures that were here (the Native Americans), followed by an outright retaliation of anything related to the Crown (American Revolutionary War), and then in-fighting between our own people over what this country "ought" to be (Civil War).... and after all of that, what we were left with was a broken identity that has never quite recovered. Now, before you bark at me that the United States has a culture, let me explain myself.

...waiting then.

The term I am using to describe culture is "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group", as taken from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. The problem with the United States is that as a country, we don't have ancestral roots to an older culture except by those that were brought from abroad.

Thats not really true at all, Jazz being a simple and easily proved example, the culture of my grandparents is significantly different from that in Poland.

And those cultures, whether they are Irish, African, Jewish, Chinese or Japanese, have all been persecuted at some point in the U.S., to the point that they have been utterly subdued (Slavery, Internment Camps). But every culture needs an identity, and when the country was struggling to make some sort of tie between so many people, only one thing seemed to ring true for everyone: money. The Industrial Revolution is when it really started, at least in my opinion.

This is where my trouble with the Capitalism argument comes in. I don't necessarily agree with the capitalistic model, however, I am also wondering what would really be left in "American" culture if you took away its capitalism. Capitalism IS American Culture, with the exception of a few groups that have specific culture (New York, New Jersey, The South, etc).

... :palm:
The only other thing that U.S. Americans would have to define themselves if Capitalism was out of the picture is their red, white and blue patriotism, which, as of late, has also been bringing great shame to me.

Get ou...
Currently, I am dating a Canadian, and living in Japan on study abroad, and every day, a little more of me is depressed by the America that is depicted not just by the world (which is warranted, but still hurtful), but also its own citizens. We are not a country of "people", but a country of individuals who struggle daily to figure out how we fit into this contrived sense of culture.

Stay out. :lol:
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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:50 pm

Ah Anti-American thread where have you been hiding at? Behind the skirt of, "Gays ruin everything!!!"?
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Hassett
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Postby Hassett » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:51 pm

Still the best country in the world.
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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:54 pm

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Plutonium Blondes
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Postby Plutonium Blondes » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:54 pm

Serguls_Haven wrote:IThe problem with the United States is that as a country, we don't have ancestral roots to an older culture except by those that were brought from abroad. And those cultures, whether they are Irish, African, Jewish, Chinese or Japanese, have all been persecuted at some point in the U.S., to the point that they have been utterly subdued (Slavery, Internment Camps). But every culture needs an identity, and when the country was struggling to make some sort of tie between so many people, only one thing seemed to ring true for everyone: money. The Industrial Revolution is when it really started, at least in my opinion.

This is where my trouble with the Capitalism argument comes in. I don't necessarily agree with the capitalistic model, however, I am also wondering what would really be left in "American" culture if you took away its capitalism. Capitalism IS American Culture, with the exception of a few groups that have specific culture (New York, New Jersey, The South, etc). The only other thing that U.S. Americans would have to define themselves if Capitalism was out of the picture is their red, white and blue patriotism, which, as of late, has also been bringing great shame to me.


What defines America is the idea that a nation can be defined by a shared set of basic political principles rather than a shared culture, religion, etc. You can move to England or France and become a citizen but you'll never really be English or French the way a native born person is. But as soon as you become an American citizen you are as American as someone who's ancestors came over on the Mayflower. In principle anyway - it doesn't work out that way perfectly in practice but it's an awfully good idea.
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Sailsia
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Postby Sailsia » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:00 pm

Hassett wrote:Still the best country in the world.

Exactly. The irony is that even though the world thinks America is so evil, it it STILL the best nation in the world. Its our lack of culture that makes us strong. Culture be damned. It's one of the only things holding people back. Just today I heard someone say that a major reason why people don't leave the ghetto is because they would feel like they're deserting their family. That's a cultural trait, the value of ones family and THEIR happiness over ones' OWN happiness. The US is still free, maybe less than pre-9/11, but WAY more free than 1943, or even 1960.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:03 pm

I'd rather be a country of individuals than a "people". I don't need a Volk to justify myself or those I know.
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Maxedon
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Postby Maxedon » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:05 pm

Hassett wrote:Still the best country in the world.

You are officialy my fourth favorite person on NS OT:What kind of American is ashamed at their own nation? You commie
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Serguls_Haven
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Postby Serguls_Haven » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:15 pm

Sailsia wrote:
Hassett wrote:Still the best country in the world.

Exactly. The irony is that even though the world thinks America is so evil, it it STILL the best nation in the world. Its our lack of culture that makes us strong. Culture be damned. It's one of the only things holding people back. Just today I heard someone say that a major reason why people don't leave the ghetto is because they would feel like they're deserting their family. That's a cultural trait, the value of ones family and THEIR happiness over ones' OWN happiness. The US is still free, maybe less than pre-9/11, but WAY more free than 1943, or even 1960.


Thanks for your comment. The thing is, I don't hate America. I wasn't trying to say that. And I do think America is one of the best countries out there. It has major issues, but every country has major issues. My problem is that now that I am living an "international" lifestyle, people look at ME directly and say "what's wrong with YOUR country." It's hard, when I'm not allowed to speak as an individual and instead as a bulletin board for the U.S. as a whole. Because there's no way to defend us as a "people".

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Serguls_Haven
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Postby Serguls_Haven » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:16 pm

Panzerjaeger wrote:Ah Anti-American thread where have you been hiding at? Behind the skirt of, "Gays ruin everything!!!"?


Actually, I'm a lesbian. :p

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:16 pm

Serguls_Haven wrote:
Sailsia wrote:Exactly. The irony is that even though the world thinks America is so evil, it it STILL the best nation in the world. Its our lack of culture that makes us strong. Culture be damned. It's one of the only things holding people back. Just today I heard someone say that a major reason why people don't leave the ghetto is because they would feel like they're deserting their family. That's a cultural trait, the value of ones family and THEIR happiness over ones' OWN happiness. The US is still free, maybe less than pre-9/11, but WAY more free than 1943, or even 1960.


Thanks for your comment. The thing is, I don't hate America. I wasn't trying to say that. And I do think America is one of the best countries out there. It has major issues, but every country has major issues. My problem is that now that I am living an "international" lifestyle, people look at ME directly and say "what's wrong with YOUR country." It's hard, when I'm not allowed to speak as an individual and instead as a bulletin board for the U.S. as a whole. Because there's no way to defend us as a "people".

Tell them to shove it? I thought the Japanese were supposed to be polite.
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Sierra Lobo
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Postby Sierra Lobo » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:17 pm

Lol, you are free to give up your citizenship. If your ashamed of it, no one is forcing you to remain being identified as such. There are thousands nay millions who wants to become an american. :p
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Serguls_Haven
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Postby Serguls_Haven » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:22 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:Tell them to shove it? I thought the Japanese were supposed to be polite.


They are polite.... kinda. In that "we actually think you're idiots" way- but really only when it comes to politics. I'm taking an accounting class where the sole intent is to show why the Japanese business model is so great (it isn't), by using the American business model as an example. And my friend, also from the U.S., keeps getting harassed by European students who have been following the U.S. news lately.

I suppose my U.S. view is also compounded by the fact that I'm a white female, and at my community college, I was a constant target for reverse racism. (These people using the "facts" that because I am white, I am therefore rich and entitled, and also, that because I am white, I hate Native Americans and/or Mexicans/Latinos)

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Jingoist Hippostan
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Postby Jingoist Hippostan » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:24 pm

No, because I'm not a little bitch who cows to what other people think of a government and culture I didn't have any part in creating. And anyone who tries to act like it's my fault should compare and contrast these two sentences. Imagine both of them as the thoughts of someone in a foreign country. Perhaps France would be fitting.


Sentence 1: "I am going to mistreat any Americans who I run into. Their government is imperialistic, and they are disgustingly obese."

Sentence 2: "I am going to mistreat any Chinese I run into. Their government violates human rights, and they all have those weird slanty eyes."

I live in a college town with lots of Chinese students, and I regularly demand they free Tibet. Yet, for some reason, everyone looks at me like I'm a dick when I do this. I mean, that's a reasonable request, right? I mean, random foreign exchange students do hold the sole decision as to whether or not Tibet is under Chinese rule.


I've always found it strange that the same people who try to look like Canadians when they travel abroad are the same kind of people who bitch endlessly whenever anything bad is said about any minority group.
Last edited by Jingoist Hippostan on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Public Solutions Inc
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Postby Public Solutions Inc » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:25 pm

Nope. Fuck that. America is a nation based on individuals. individual rights, individual freedoms, individual responsibility.

No American is guilty for the actions of other individuals. This is a free country, not a hive-mind, ant colony or collective.

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:27 pm

Serguls_Haven wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:Tell them to shove it? I thought the Japanese were supposed to be polite.


They are polite.... kinda. In that "we actually think you're idiots" way- but really only when it comes to politics. I'm taking an accounting class where the sole intent is to show why the Japanese business model is so great (it isn't), by using the American business model as an example.

That is pretty funny, considering how shitty their economy had been doing since forever.
And my friend, also from the U.S., keeps getting harassed by European students who have been following the U.S. news lately.

ew, Europeans.

I suppose my U.S. view is also compounded by the fact that I'm a white female, and at my community college, I was a constant target for reverse racism. (These people using the "facts" that because I am white, I am therefore rich and entitled, and also, that because I am white, I hate Native Americans and/or Mexicans/Latinos)

A lot of things can be solved by telling people to shove it :P
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Chamberliania
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Postby Chamberliania » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:27 pm

South Norwega wrote:
Serguls_Haven wrote:We are a very young nation

No you're not.

234 years is older than the vast majority of countries.

Especially with a stable system of governance which hasn't changed very much.


It is an older country, it has older political systems, but it is not an old NATION. Nationism (Nationalism?) is about the shared history and language, and culture. A place like England or France or Japan is a much older nation than we are.
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Wyrdnesse
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Postby Wyrdnesse » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:28 pm

Dude, the vast majority of countries in this planet's history has either had its shameful imperialistic moments or were pitiful Grand Fenwicks being walked all over and eager to go along with the fascist conquerors to keep their meager excuses for independence.

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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:30 pm

I quite enjoy my freedom, thank you.

If you really hate this nation, I'd welcome you to leave it (or at least abstain from voting in the next election).

Sincerely,
Augarundus
Last edited by Augarundus on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Buffett and Colbert
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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:32 pm

Augarundus wrote:I quite enjoy my freedom, thank you.

If you really hate this nation, I'd welcome you to leave it (or at least abstain from voting in the next election).

Sincerely,
Augarundus


Disapproval =/= hate, especially when the OP says he doesn't hate the country.
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Serguls_Haven
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Postby Serguls_Haven » Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:32 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:That is pretty funny, considering how shitty their economy had been doing since forever.


No kidding XP He blamed their bubble bursting on the fact that they had been following the American business model. So, if they return to the Japanese way of doing things, the economy will recover. Granted, the guy thinks that intangible assets are the skills of the workers and the institutional wisdom of the CEOs.
Last edited by Serguls_Haven on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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