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The Bible as Literature in Schools

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Sarkhaan
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The Bible as Literature in Schools

Postby Sarkhaan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:53 pm

So recently, I saw a list of books centered around the question "What should college students be reading". I expressed shock that only the story of Job had made the list, and commented that the entire book should be read.

Someone jumped on me for suggesting that the Bible should be studied in schools, claiming it was blatant indoctrination, and that, if the Bible were to be taught in public schools, teachers should be required to explore the negatives created by the religions based around that document.

My response was along the lines of "I merely stated that college students should be reading the Bible. Up until now, I never suggested it should be taught in public schools. However, I will make such a claim now. The Bible should be required reading in high school".

This sparked a brief discussion that was, sadly, rapidly abandoned by the other party...but it has still been on my mind. So I bring it you NSG (yes, I know we have had occasional discussions about teaching religion, and even tangential conversations about the Bible in English classrooms, but I can't recall a topic expressly looking into the issue).

My stance is this:

The Bible in its various translations has historically, and is currently, one of, if not the most widely read books in the English language. As such, it is also one of the most frequently alluded to texts. Biblical names, themes, and stories are frequently hinted at, modified, or blatantly used in literature. An understanding of the text alluded to results in a deeper understanding of the text being read.

Take, for example, the opening line of Moby-Dick: "Call me Ishmael". Powerful line...it instantly calls into question the authority of the narrator...is his name really Ishmael, or is that just what he wants us to call him? But there is more meaning there. Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son. Abraham expelled Ishmael after God told him that Issac would be the start of the Jewish nation. God also promised to make Ishmael a nation (he is the father of the Arab nation by Biblical tradition).

What information do we gain from understanding the Biblical allusion? Now, we know that not only is the narrator potentially untrustworthy, but he has taken on the name of the rejected son, graced by God, but rejected by man. This plays into the rest of the novel.

This is only one example. We find Biblical names and stories throughout literature: Ahab in Moby-Dick, Paradise Lost retelling the story of Adam and Eve, East of Eden and Grapes of Wrath referencing Biblical themes in their titles, "God's Favorite" retelling the story of Job, The Chronicles of Narnia being a Biblical allegory, Simon in Lord of the Flies relating to Jesus, the title Absalom, Absalom! and "Salome", and countless references to "The Prodigal Son", "Adam and Eve", "Creation", "Revelation", and "Sermon on the Mount"...the list could go on. And those are only some of the literary references, not delving into art and film.

It is clear that The Bible forms one of the basic texts of the English canon.

What I propose is that it is taught as literature: looked at in the same way we would study Greco-Roman, Norse, and Eastern mythology. Not read to judge, not read for religious indoctrination, and not read to attack the religions that follow the text. Read from a critical literary standpoint as we would any other text facing us as a class. Strip away the cultural noise and look at what the text actually says. Understand the issues facing us, as English readers, in the fact that we are reading a translation (and sometimes a translation of a translation). We do not have to investigate the evils done by Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, same as we don't have to study the evils perpetrated by the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Vikings, Chinese, Koreans, or anyone else's myths we read. It simply is not relevant.

There is no reason to study the religions that follow the text in an English classroom: It simply is not relevant. It is also not necessary to bring in other religious texts like the Koran, Talmud, or Satanic Bible, as these texts simply have not had the impact that the Bible has had upon English literature.


TL:DR, start here.

The Bible should be taught in the English classroom because it is an important text. It can provide new ways to explore literature. It should be handled in the same respectful way all texts are, and students should be free to interpret the text in their own way. This should go without saying, as that is how ALL literature should be taught. Simply put, the Bible is kinda important to the English canon, and we are not serving our students by pretending it is something that is somehow "off limits" within the classroom.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:58 pm

I'd say that parts of the bible should be studied.

The whole text is far too long to studied in any meaningful way during the few years of high school.

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Horsefish
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Postby Horsefish » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:01 pm

Doesn't really contribute much to modern literature though does it?
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Sarkhaan
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Postby Sarkhaan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:02 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:I'd say that parts of the bible should be studied.

The whole text is far too long to studied in any meaningful way during the few years of high school.

I could agree with that. I think we could all agree that the chapters of "____ begat ____" and the like could readily be skipped. We don't really need a lesson in the Jewish lineage, as that is rarely (if ever) cited in literature. Aspects of books like Leviticus could probably be skipped. The Jewish legal system might be better left to a comparative religion class.

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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:03 pm

Horsefish wrote:Doesn't really contribute much to modern literature though does it?

It sure as fuck does.
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Postby Innsmothe » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:04 pm

Only the latter half, the Old testament should be buried.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:05 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:I'd say that parts of the bible should be studied.

The whole text is far too long to studied in any meaningful way during the few years of high school.

I'm down with that. It's certainly something every proper literary scholar should read, but there's at least a dozen of Shakespeare's plays ever proper literary scholar should read, too, along with a shitload of classical Greek and Roman works, and there's not enough time in school for all that.
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Postby Dododecapod » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:06 pm

The Bible should not be taught in High School English because it isn't an english text, it's a translation. If you were studying something like Comparative Religion or World Literature, it would fit, but those are generally college courses.
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:06 pm

Innsmothe wrote:Only the latter half, the Old testament should be buried.

At least the Old Testament doesn't repeat the same fucking story several times.
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Public Solutions Inc
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Postby Public Solutions Inc » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:07 pm

The Bible forms the philosophy that millions adhere to and an understanding of it is critical for understanding their perspective.

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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:07 pm

Dododecapod wrote:The Bible should not be taught in High School English because it isn't an english text, it's a translation.


It still had greater effect on English literature than any book ever written.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:08 pm

Dododecapod wrote:The Bible should not be taught in High School English because it isn't an english text, it's a translation. If you were studying something like Comparative Religion or World Literature, it would fit, but those are generally college courses.


The King James bible isn't an English text?

Really? :eyebrow:

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Postby Dododecapod » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:08 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Innsmothe wrote:Only the latter half, the Old testament should be buried.

At least the Old Testament doesn't repeat the same fucking story several times.


Yeah, it does, actually. The story of David and Goliath is repeated just a few pages later, but with a different protagonist.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:08 pm

Public Solutions Inc wrote:The Bible forms the philosophy that millions adhere to and an understanding of it is critical for understanding their perspective.


But that is irrelevant to studies of English literature.

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Postby Caninope » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:08 pm

Innsmothe wrote:Only the latter half, the Old testament should be buried.

Except the Old Testament, like it or not, has contributed as much to history and literature.

Ever heard of someone named David? EDIT: Not meant to be condescending.
Last edited by Caninope on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:09 pm

Compulsory reading of the whole thing ? No.

Reading parts as well as a complete summary ? Certainly. It is after all an influential book, referenced heavily in literature and other cultural expressions.

Being allowed to put it on your "reading list" and hav it count as literature ? Hmm. It is not really up to that standard, but then again.. it is old. And as mentioned a basis for many other, often superior, works of fiction.
So yes. If a student wants to - let them.
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Postby Galloism » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:09 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:The Bible should not be taught in High School English because it isn't an english text, it's a translation. If you were studying something like Comparative Religion or World Literature, it would fit, but those are generally college courses.


The King James bible isn't an English text?

Really? :eyebrow:

Didn't know you could speak Klingon, did you?

But you can read it. It's all in Klingon.
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Postby Dododecapod » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:09 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:The Bible should not be taught in High School English because it isn't an english text, it's a translation. If you were studying something like Comparative Religion or World Literature, it would fit, but those are generally college courses.


The King James bible isn't an English text?

Really? :eyebrow:


Really. It's a translation from Latin. A GREAT translation, to be sure, but still a translation.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:10 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:The King James bible isn't an English text?

Really? :eyebrow:


More a very figurative translation, but you still bring a good point about its beauty being credible to English writing. I'm not sure the King James would be the version used though.
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Postby Caninope » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:11 pm

Dododecapod wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The King James bible isn't an English text?

Really? :eyebrow:


Really. It's a translation from Latin. A GREAT translation, to be sure, but still a translation.

English literature isn't always written in English first time around.
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Postby Jingoist Hippostan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:11 pm

Innsmothe wrote:Only the latter half, the Old testament should be buried.


The bible as lit class where I went to school was just the old testament.

...So I guess it was actually the Torah as lit. I'm fine with it being taught as literature, it's an important book in our culture. Plus Bible as Lit was an elective, so it's not like anyone had to read it who didn't want to. I never took it, but the teacher seemed like he probably was actually teaching it as literature (Very calm and intellectual, very left-wing, he seemed more like a college professor than a high school teacher.)
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:12 pm

Dododecapod wrote:Really. It's a translation from Latin. A GREAT translation, to be sure, but still a translation.


It is so much more than that. It's a translation polished into one of the most beautifully written texts of all time.

To say that it is just a direct translation is simply wrong.

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Sarkhaan
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Postby Sarkhaan » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:12 pm

Horsefish wrote:Doesn't really contribute much to modern literature though does it?

It does. Jesus figures have been prominent and actually seem to be becoming more common (stories like The Matrix). Authors are less able to rely upon the assumption that everyone has read a set of basic texts (the Bible, Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, the Greek plays, Dante), but that doesn't mean that we aren't still seeing frequent references. Sherman Alexie's 1995 novel "Reservation Blues" includes references to the Sermon on the Mount and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Biblical names are frequently used to call in their Biblical counterparts. The only texts that might contribute more on a regular basis would be the works of Shakespeare. Most people just don't notice them.

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Postby The Alma Mater » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:12 pm

Dododecapod wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The King James bible isn't an English text?

Really? :eyebrow:


Really. It's a translation from Latin. A GREAT translation, to be sure, but still a translation.


A translation you read if you have no interest in what the original text actually said you mean ;)
Quite an original work :)
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:12 pm

Dododecapod wrote:Yeah, it does, actually. The story of David and Goliath is repeated just a few pages later, but with a different protagonist.


Most myths do something like that, but not repeat the whole damn thing with the same person with the same ending over so many pages, shit.
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