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UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

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Shazbotdom
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UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Shazbotdom » Fri May 15, 2009 12:24 pm

I'm not sure how many of you here have been following this situation as closely as I have (since I live in the general area and all that), but I figured I'd get your oppinion on the situation involving the University of North Dakota, it's nickname and logo, the NCAA and the Sioux Tribes within the state of North Dakota.

UND must retire the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo starting Oct. 1 unless the university can get not only the blessings of the two namesake tribes but a 30-year agreement with those tribes, the State Board of Higher Education decided Thursday.


DICKINSON, N.D. — UND must retire the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo starting Oct. 1 unless the university can get not only the blessings of the two namesake tribes, but a 30-year agreement with those tribes, the State Board of Higher Education decided Thursday.

It’s a condition that appears all but impossible given the reality of tribal divisions, the timing of elections on the Standing Rock Sioux reservation and the extensive negotiations that would be necessary for such a long-term agreement.

The board weighed the nickname, which has been a UND tradition since the 1930s, against a historic opportunity to be a part of the Summit League athletic conference, which includes traditional rival, North Dakota State University, and beginning in 2011, the University of South Dakota.

Grant Shaft and Duaine Espegard, Grand Forks, told fellow board members the board they’d visited with league Commissioner Tom Douple in Chicago a few weeks ago and were told: There is space for one university left in the league and six universities have already applied, one of which Douple said “had national recognition.”

Douple also made it clear, Shaft said, that there is no guarantee UND will get in the league with the nickname gone. Still, Shaft said he believes it would make the most logical sense, considering how Douple wants to consolidate the league in the Dakotas.

It also would make a lot of sense for UND on multiple levels — stronger fan enthusiasm in competition against old rivals being one, Shaft said, basing his comments on conversations with UND athletic director Brian Faison.

Initially, Shaft recommended an Aug. 1 deadline to begin retiring the nickname. Board member Pam Kostelecky felt Oct. 1 would be better because it would give Standing Rock nickname supporters a chance to issue a referendum either at the July 15 primary election or the Sept. 15 tribal election.

The Spirit Lake tribe voted last month overwhelmingly to support the nickname.

The full retirement of the nickname would have to be done by Aug. 1, 2010.

Originally, under a timetable laid out by the state board, UND had until February 2010 to win the blessings of the namesake tribes. If that failed to happen, it was to fully retire the nickname by Nov. 30, 2010, as required by the legal settlement between UND and the NCAA, which opposes Indian nicknames.

Q&A

Q. Why is the Summit League so important to UND?

A. The Summit League appears to be the ideal athletic conference for UND because most of its members are Midwestern universities. Besides reviving old rivalries with NDSU and SDSU, it would cut down on travel costs significantly, Shaft said.

“UND has some horrendous traveling expenses with its minor teams, volleyball, baseball,” he said. It’s possible to combine team travel and save a lot of money, he said.

Another advantage is the Summit League has an automatic berth at NCAA playoffs, Shaft said. NDSU’s men’s basketball team got in the tournament this year because it was league champion and, historically, UND has competed well against NDSU, meaning UND could advance to the tournament, too.

And, he said, league membership has helped NDSU with stronger enrollment and donations.

It’s worth noting that of the three major sports UND is involved in, hockey and football already are in separate conferences, which leaves just basketball. On the other hand, the nickname is most strongly affiliated with hockey and the biggest potential impact of a nickname change would be with that program.

Shaft said he understands hockey would get hit the hardest. But, he said, some of the feared impacts, such as massive changes necessary at the Sioux logo-bedecked Ralph Engelstad Arena, wouldn’t come to pass. The Ralph, under the NCAA settlement, could mostly stay as is, he said.

Q. What are UND’s chances of getting in the league?

A. It’s anybody’s guess at this point how much of a chance UND would have against the six other universities that want in on the league.

In his discussion with Douple, Shaft told the Herald the commissioner “played it pretty close to the chest,” probably because he doesn’t want to speak for his members. That’s really where the decision lies, Shaft said.

Douple earlier had said he would not consider an application from UND until the nickname issue is resolved. Shaft told the Herald his feeling is that’s a reflection of how league members feel.

League members worry that competing with UND before the nickname is resolved could bring “trouble” to their campuses, he said to the board. “It’s baggage that UND tends to bring along that disrupts their perfect world, so to speak.”

Still, even if UND were to apply to the league today and were accepted, it wouldn’t actually compete with other league members until 2011, at which time the nickname issue would have been long resolved.

Shaft said he and Espegard believe UND would be the most logical choice for Summit League members. UND has similar programs to NDSU and USD, he said, and Douple “spoke of solidifying the Dakota schools within the conference.”

Q. What’s the urgency of resolving the nickname now?

A. The Summit League isn’t necessarily going to wait for UND, particularly with others looking to get in.

It has 11 members and considers 12 an optimal number for scheduling games. USD is entering the league July 1, 2011. If UND were accepted within the next several months, it also would enter in 2011, matching USD’s timeline. That would make scheduling even more optimal and more attractive to the league, Shaft said.

Alternatively, it would be just as optimal if some other university joined by 2011.

Would it make a difference if UND applied Aug. 1 or Oct. 1? Shaft said, “I can’t tell you that. It‘s just the earlier the better.”

Q. How challenging is a 30-year agreement?

A. Getting a 30-year agreement in the next 4½ would seem to be a herculean political task for nickname supporters on the reservations.

Spirit Lake nickname supporters arguably have the easiest time. Members voted 764-371 in April to let UND keep the nickname. The Tribal Council would have to approve a resolution to that effect to satisfy the NCAA settlement.

John Chaske, the leader of the nickname supporters, said he doesn’t know when the council would do so, though he expects it will want to meet with UND officials first. New council members will take office at the end of May and the new council would decide on the timeline, he said.

For Standing Rock nickname supporters, the situation is much tougher. They’re gathering signatures for a referendum July 15 or Sept. 15, but, as with Spirit Lake, the Tribal Council would have to approve a resolution.

The present council will not do that, tribal Chairman Ron His Horse is Thunder told the board.

He and most of the council are up for re-election and, even if they were displaced by pro-nickname members, those new members won’t take office until Oct. 1, the state board’s deadline.

A 30-year agreement is even trickier, though Shaft and other board members feel it is necessary because no one wants the nickname to bounce from round to round of tribal votes.

His Horse is Thunder told the board that for the nickname to bind the Tribal Council it couldn’t be just a law, but a constitutional amendment, which would take a vote of tribal members. But even if that were to happen, he said, tribal members can undo the amendment with another vote at anytime. “No laws can be said to last forever.”

A long-term agreement would likely take a lot of negotiation between UND and the tribes, which would be even more difficult if the people who might want to be at the negotiation table are tribal members who wouldn’t take office until Oct. 1.

Q. Is the 30-year agreement an impossible condition?

A. Board President Richie Smith described the 30-year agreement as “challenging” and his marching orders to UND are to begin retiring the nickname unless an agreement somehow appears. At times, he seemed to indicate that the nickname was all but finished: “The logo and nickname have been a symbol of pride for many generations, but it’s time to move forward.”

Shaft, asked if he didn’t think “impossible” would be a better description of the situation, told the Herald, “It’s the best timeline we could give that didn’t fully jeopardize UND’s positioning for league affiliation; it’s a compromise, no question.”

UND President Robert Kelley said if the nickname did change, he would form an “inclusive planning committee” to gather input. Until that committee decides on a new nickname, he said, UND will be known simply as “UND.”

Asked if he had any ideas for a nickname, Kelley demurred. He doesn’t want to speculate, he said.


Personally I think it's about time. People have been expressing their oppinions against it (both caucasians and native americans\Sioux alike) and after an orriginal agreement to use the nickname and likeness in a "Dignified" manner; the UND Students and Administration have used it in horrific manners, including t-shirts depicting a Sioux male in sexual acts with a Bison (NDSU, UND's rival's mascots). As well as threatening those who are against the logo with physical bodily harm and even as far as threatening death to those who are against the logo and nickname.

What say ye, NSG?
Last edited by Shazbotdom on Fri May 15, 2009 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Grays Harbor » Fri May 15, 2009 12:32 pm

I think I am fed up with PC name changes.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Fri May 15, 2009 12:40 pm

I'm not sure. Changing their nickname to the "Oversensitive Minority Groups" might be amusing, tho. ;)

See also: Appeals court sides with Redskins on trademark. (For those outside the US: the Redskins are the Washington, DC American Rules Football team.)
Last edited by Northwest Slobovia on Fri May 15, 2009 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Grays Harbor » Fri May 15, 2009 12:44 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:I'm not sure. Changing their nickname to the "Oversensitive Minority Groups" might be amusing, tho. ;)

See also: Appeals court sides with Redskins on trademark. (For those outside the US: the Redskins are the Washington, DC American Rules Football team.)

ok, gotta give you points for that one! :lol:
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Shazbotdom » Fri May 15, 2009 12:45 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:I think I am fed up with PC name changes.


So you think it's right for a group of people to use a depiction of a group of people in a manner that is hostile, abusive and undignified?
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Grays Harbor » Fri May 15, 2009 12:53 pm

what other teams could do with a name change because of insulting stereotypes?

How about:
Boston Celtics and Notre Dame Fighting Irish - unfavorable stereotypes of drunken, brawling irishmen.
Miami Hurricanes - Hurricanes bring death and destruction to thousands every year. How insensitive of UM to be a constant reminder of the pain and suffering caused?
Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, Washington Redskins, Florida State Univ Seminoles - All derogatory to Native Americans
Buffalo Bills - a constant reminder of Buffalo Bill Cody, a notorious exploiter of native Americans for his own personal gain
Los Angeles Angels - religion. need I say more?

got any others?
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Grays Harbor » Fri May 15, 2009 12:53 pm

Shazbotdom wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:I think I am fed up with PC name changes.


So you think it's right for a group of people to use a depiction of a group of people in a manner that is hostile, abusive and undignified?


I think I am tired of hyper-sensitive whiners.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Shazbotdom » Fri May 15, 2009 12:57 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:
Shazbotdom wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:I think I am fed up with PC name changes.


So you think it's right for a group of people to use a depiction of a group of people in a manner that is hostile, abusive and undignified?


I think I am tired of hyper-sensitive whiners.


And threatening bodily harm to those who just state that they dont like the nickname is justifiable how?
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Grays Harbor » Fri May 15, 2009 1:00 pm

if you can point out who i have threatened...............


so, if a few drunk fratboys say they are going to kick somebodys behind, that makes the entire argument for name change legitimate.

try a more concrete argument.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Shazbotdom » Fri May 15, 2009 1:04 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:if you can point out who i have threatened...............


so, if a few drunk fratboys say they are going to kick somebodys behind, that makes the entire argument for name change legitimate.

try a more concrete argument.


Did I ever say you have threatened anyone?

And it wasn't just a "few frat boy's". More than 270 criminal complaints have been filed over the past 3 years with the Grand Forks Police Department and the Grand Forks County Sheriffs Department for harassment and assault throughout the region. More than 30% of those have ended with the accused being found guity of those criminal charges.

There was an incident at the local WalMart of a male member of a Lakota tribe being stabbed because he had a bumper sticker that stated he was against the Logo and Nickname.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Fri May 15, 2009 1:06 pm

Shazbotdom wrote:So you think it's right for a group of people to use a depiction of a group of people in a manner that is hostile, abusive and undignified?


See, this is one of the things that confuses me about these discussions: the reason (or among the popular reasons) people name sports teams after groups is to memoralize that their ancestors (or some of them) were great warriors. What's hostile, abusive, and/or undignified about that?

Sure, some fans are gonna be rude, obnoxious twits, but how is that the team's (or league's) problem? At most, all they can do is tell people to be good, and perhaps throw offenders out of their stadium.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Shazbotdom » Fri May 15, 2009 1:16 pm

Northwest Slobovia
Thats true. But the problems is that almost everyone who supports the logo that attends school here are white. The only Native Americans who supported the logo only did it because the school "Promised" them scholorships if they supported it (with money that they don't have) and/or paid the people who attend a workshop to hear about how they should support the logo. Which last I checked when you pay anyone to attend anything to listen to why they should support something, that would be vote buying.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Anti-Social Darwinism » Fri May 15, 2009 7:02 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:what other teams could do with a name change because of insulting stereotypes?

How about:
Boston Celtics and Notre Dame Fighting Irish - unfavorable stereotypes of drunken, brawling irishmen.
Miami Hurricanes - Hurricanes bring death and destruction to thousands every year. How insensitive of UM to be a constant reminder of the pain and suffering caused?
Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, Washington Redskins, Florida State Univ Seminoles - All derogatory to Native Americans
Buffalo Bills - a constant reminder of Buffalo Bill Cody, a notorious exploiter of native Americans for his own personal gain
Los Angeles Angels - religion. need I say more?

got any others?


Colorado Rockies - unwarranted exploitation of a mountain range.
Denver Nuggets - I don't know, it could either be a derogatory reference to a McDonald's chicken dish or a derogatory reference to the mining industry in Colorado.
Colorado Avalanche - See Miami Hurricanes
Denver Broncos - An exploitative reference to the wild horses used in rodeos - PETA should step in.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Wawona » Fri May 15, 2009 11:18 pm

Coon cheese always gets me. Apparently it got its name from the original colour of the wrapper.
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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Ferrous Oxide » Fri May 15, 2009 11:34 pm

Americans and their college "football" amuse me!

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Re: UND -- NICKNAME DEADLINE: Oct. 1

Postby Valipac » Sat May 16, 2009 1:25 am

Anti-Social Darwinism wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:what other teams could do with a name change because of insulting stereotypes?

How about:
Boston Celtics and Notre Dame Fighting Irish - unfavorable stereotypes of drunken, brawling irishmen.
Miami Hurricanes - Hurricanes bring death and destruction to thousands every year. How insensitive of UM to be a constant reminder of the pain and suffering caused?
Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, Washington Redskins, Florida State Univ Seminoles - All derogatory to Native Americans
Buffalo Bills - a constant reminder of Buffalo Bill Cody, a notorious exploiter of native Americans for his own personal gain
Los Angeles Angels - religion. need I say more?

got any others?


Colorado Rockies - unwarranted exploitation of a mountain range.
Denver Nuggets - I don't know, it could either be a derogatory reference to a McDonald's chicken dish or a derogatory reference to the mining industry in Colorado.
Colorado Avalanche - See Miami Hurricanes
Denver Broncos - An exploitative reference to the wild horses used in rodeos - PETA should step in.


Before you know it, all of the sports franchises with animals will have to change their mascot because PETA will force them.
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