**For those against immigration to America**

[Enadail]

More then a few studies show undocumented immigration is currently declining, and historical rates show immigration (undocumented or not) decline during recessions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100902/ap_ ... mmigration

But absolutely... they come here because America is painted as a land of hope, opportunity, a place where they can actually feed their families.

I say it isn't so because I say so, absolutely. I don't care what a page on yahoo.com says. You don't know what you're talking about if you think your take is an all encompassing truth.

Corporations make a profit at the expense of others, including the middle class picking up the slack of illegals. Mexico as a policy wishes to bleed off poverty into the US. Illegals have been shown to end up as slaves extorted by their illegal employers and to often die due to complete lack of medical care.

Do you deny those things are true? If not, do you find it acceptable and just wish to sit on your thumbs?

Did I claim to have an encompassing truth? Though I will say as I have personal experience in this, I have a fair bit of personal and direct knowledge in the matter. However, I made no such grandiose claims as I have some absolute or encompassing turth. Rather, you asked for evidence about declining rates of undocumented immigration: I provided an article by an AP writer. What would you prefer? Me to stand along the Mexican border and do a headcount? So please, if you're unwilling to accept what you're asking for, don't bother asking.

Of course I do not find the terrible conditions undocumented immigrants find themselves in acceptable. Nor do I sit on my thumbs on the matter, being an active advocate for CIR. However, I do believe at least part of the solution is bringing the shadow society into the light... employers can get away with abusing human rights because we don't/can't keep track of them. When bills come up mandating things like electronic verification methods, people with monetary influence make sure these bills are shot down.

I am massively confused though... you said they come here due to cultural myth, I agreed... though I guess you and I might be thinking of a different cultural myth.

[Numerika]

Second of all is the conflict the immigration itself causes. The people who hop over tend to be uneducated, and are from societies that are, by our standards, quite corrupt. I believe this is the reason that first-generation immigrants are more likely to commit a crime than native-born people,

It's true, and no developed nation on the planet has open borders for a reason. When these people say that "we need them", they're full of it and have no proof, just biased wishful thinking rhetoric. Either that or they are their cousins.

[Enadail]

First of all, if you get a large number of foreign-born individuals coming in at once, they bring their culture with them. While I'm a lover of culture and a multiculturalist, and in small amounts this is a fantastic thing, when you get so many, a dilution of the native culture takes place. These individuals tend to flock to smaller areas, which is the reason you have large areas of the US that are essentially hispanic in every sense of the word. A lot of people might respond to this with, "So what?" but cultural usurpation has shown to be a large problem throughout history, causing a lot of conflict.

Second of all is the conflict the immigration itself causes. The people who hop over tend to be uneducated, and are from societies that are, by our standards, quite corrupt. I believe this is the reason that first-generation immigrants are more likely to commit a crime than native-born people, and this transmission of their culture and beliefs to their (many) children, and the association with their demographic culturally with crime, causes even second or third generations to be noticeably more likely to commit a crime(this is the issue with African-American crime: they feel that if they do not with to betray their race, they must act as they are expected to act by larger society).

To your first argument, you make an excellent point. I would however add in the caveat that part of why a lot of communities section themselves off are because American do a pretty good job of not integrating outside of large cities. Players like New York, Atlanta... you can find multiculturalism everywhere. On the other hand, I have cousins (I'm Indian btw) who live in West Virginia, and their community is mostly Indian, largely because locals don't really want Indians around. And even if this is not a prevailing notion, American cultural superiority makes it feel like other cultures aren't welcome (take that new show, Outsourced... I found it pretty offensive).

To your second point, I strongly disagree. First, do you have any evidence that first generation immigrants from corrupt nations are more likely to commit crimes because of their heritage? And the same for second/third generation? I find most crime from African Americans comes from those raised in cities, where they have many other influence as to why they commit crime, few to none of which have to do with heritage (such as poverty, poor education, poor upbringings, bad neighborhoods).

[Numerika]

Did I claim to have an encompassing truth?

Either way, you clearly didn't get close. But it's good of you to concede on only stating opinions in the face of evidence about serious policy.

Though I will say as I have personal experience in this, I have a fair bit of personal and direct knowledge in the matter.

I have lived in Mexico and have done charity work there.

Rather, you asked for evidence about declining rates of undocumented immigration:

I asked for proof of the entire comment, not some vague reference to rates which by definition of being illegal can't be accurately measured.

I mean where's the proof that they only come here looking for jobs to save themselves from extinction, as you infer?

I'm telling you they come here just as much because of a cultural myth, if not more so.

I am massively confused though... you said they come here due to cultural myth, I agreed... though I guess you and I might be thinking of a different cultural myth.

I'm talking about the myth that crossing the border will have a system waiting for them with open arms, ready to take care of them economically.

[Enadail]

Second of all is the conflict the immigration itself causes. The people who hop over tend to be uneducated, and are from societies that are, by our standards, quite corrupt. I believe this is the reason that first-generation immigrants are more likely to commit a crime than native-born people,

It's true, and no developed nation on the planet has open borders for a reason. When these people say that "we need them", they're full of it and have no proof, just biased wishful thinking rhetoric. Either that or they are their cousins.

Yah, get rid of all the undocumented farm and construction workers, that'll go well. We don't need those guys at all.

[Numerika]

It's true, and no developed nation on the planet has open borders for a reason. When these people say that "we need them", they're full of it and have no proof, just biased wishful thinking rhetoric. Either that or they are their cousins.

Yah, get rid of all the undocumented farm and construction workers, that'll go well. We don't need those guys at all.

We really don't. Where do I sign up as the authority to put that into effect? Oh, nowhere.

[Enadail]

I have lived in Mexico and have done charity work there.

I'm an undocumented immigrant because my parents let our visa fall out of status. I'm involved with people who are here illegally, as well as the communities that support them. I'll wait for your attack on that while I talk about things first hand.

I asked for proof of the entire comment, not some vague reference to rates which by definition of being illegal can't be accurately measured.

I mean where's the proof that they only come here looking for jobs to save themselves from extinction, as you infer?

I'm telling you they come here just as much because of a cultural myth, if not more so.

So... you asked for proof you are saying can't be found... you asked for proof of why they come here, which is a matter of personal opinion (to each of them I mean, not us). Basically, you want impossible proof, and knowing I can't get it, have assured victory. Congratulations!

I do however agree that Americans prestige and mysticism is a large part of why they come here and not to say... another well developed American country?

I'm talking about the myth that crossing the border will have a system waiting for them with open arms, ready to take care of them economically.

Interesting... never met an undocumented immigrant who's had this notion... but I'll take your word for it, having lived in Mexico and all.

[Numerika]

No, my friend. Not that at all. I'm talking about subsidizing the poverty the illegal aliens import.

How is the middle class subsidizing poverty?

Use your imagination.

[Enadail]

Yah, get rid of all the undocumented farm and construction workers, that'll go well. We don't need those guys at all.

We really don't. Where do I sign up as the authority to put that into effect? Oh, nowhere.

How about you sign up to take those farm workers jobs... like the whole dozen that has done to in the last 2 months?

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

[Panzerjaeger]

Sibirsky, you give capitalism a bad name.

How? By going by how Capitalism has always operated?

[Numerika]

I have lived in Mexico and have done charity work there.

I'm an undocumented immigrant because my parents let our visa fall out of status. I'm involved with people who are here illegally, as well as the communities that support them. I'll wait for your attack on that while I talk about things first hand.

Rhetoric upon rhetoric. The point here is that who is biased. Let the people decide... silently.

I do however agree that Americans prestige and mysticism is a large part of why they come here and not to say... another well developed American country?

I guess Canada is too close. Get serious.

I'm talking about the myth that crossing the border will have a system waiting for them with open arms, ready to take care of them economically.

Interesting... never met an undocumented immigrant who's had this notion... but I'll take your word for it, having lived in Mexico and all.

I don't care if you take my word for it or not. I know it's true.

But you can go ahead and believe in open borders and the paradise that promises.

[Panzerjaeger]

We really don't. Where do I sign up as the authority to put that into effect? Oh, nowhere.

How about you sign up to take those farm workers jobs... like the whole dozen that has done to in the last 2 months?

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

I should totally take the word of a bunch of Communists of course.

[Numerika]

We really don't. Where do I sign up as the authority to put that into effect? Oh, nowhere.

How about you sign up to take those farm workers jobs... like the whole dozen that has done to in the last 2 months?

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

They way things are going, I might- if only they paid legal wages, which they don't given the alternative.

[Numerika]

How about you sign up to take those farm workers jobs... like the whole dozen that has done to in the last 2 months?

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

I should totally take the word of a bunch of Communists of course.

They're not even communists. They're biased opportunist secular fundamentalists.

[Enadail]

I don't care if you take my word for it or not. I know it's true.

But you can go ahead and believe in open borders and the paradise that promises.

Right... you knew from living in Mexico, my knowledge of knowing and talking to undocumented immigrants really doesn't add to much.

And open borders? Dumbest idea ever in today's world. I'm completely against it, and I challenge you to find any place I claimed that's a viable solution.

Who's the one with the all encompassing knowledge?

And yes, TakeOurJobs pays as well as it does for any other farm worker (which is actually pretty good, though far below the amount they deserve for the work they do). So go for it! You can be, I think its... #14? All those Americans, taking back their jobs!

[Numerika]

And open borders? Dumbest idea ever in today's world. I'm completely against it, and I challenge you to find any place I claimed that's a viable solution.

If you didn't want people to think you were for open borders, you should have mentioned your solutions to the problem of poverty importation instead of dishing out spin and rhetoric. You might also not tacitly defend violating immigration law, if not openly defending it. It's hard to keep which rhetoric goes with which poster. If you don't mind, just go ahead and clarify and cut the cheap shots and filler.

And yes, TakeOurJobs pays as well as it does for any other farm worker (which is actually pretty good, though far below the amount they deserve for the work they do). So go for it! You can be, I think its... #14? All those Americans, taking back their jobs!

This is pointless and idiotic. I don't see the relevance. What does my career choice have to do with illegal wages? Stop BSing for a moment. Do you support illegal wages or not?

[Sibirsky]

The fact is that visas are granted in equal numbers to citizens of all countries. So you end up with wait times like these...

British PhD 6 months
South African computer programmer 6 years
Indian computer programmer 35 years
Mexican high school diploma (with a US citizen sibling)131 years.

[Numerika]

Mexican high school diploma (with a US citizen sibling)131 years.

Quite a laughable lie. A visa is not a green card.

[Sibirsky]

Mexican high school diploma (with a US citizen sibling)131 years.

Quite a laughable lie. A visa is not a green card.

You're the one lying. You and your importation of poverty bullshit. The same could be said about nearly all immigrants.

[Numerika]

Quite a laughable lie. A visa is not a green card.

You're the one lying. You and your importation of poverty bullshit. The same could be said about nearly all immigrants.

Yeah, I'm sure those doctors from India are just itching to live in a dump and have a ton of kids to spray paint walls en masse.

You say I'm lying about a visa not being a green card? Stop embarrassing yourself.

[Cobhanglica]

Sibirsky, you give capitalism a bad name.

How? By going by how Capitalism has always operated?

No, by willfully hurting the nation to make a quick buck. He makes us all look like a bunch of greedy pigs.

[Panzerjaeger]

How? By going by how Capitalism has always operated?

No, by willfully hurting the nation to make a quick buck. He makes us all look like a bunch of greedy pigs.

That is essentially capitalism it is profit driven.

[Sibirsky]

Immigrants. 12% of the population yet started most Silicon Valley technology corporations.

Intel, eBay, Yahoo, Google. Started by immigrants. Created billions in wealth. Gave jobs to 130 thousand Americans.

140 thousand skilled workers get visas. Half a million are on waiting lists. Microsoft opened a software center in Canada. That does not benefit the US in any way.

[Cobhanglica]

No, by willfully hurting the nation to make a quick buck. He makes us all look like a bunch of greedy pigs.

That is essentially capitalism it is profit driven.

Profit driven =/= no conscience.

[Sibirsky]

You're the one lying. You and your importation of poverty bullshit. The same could be said about nearly all immigrants.

Yeah, I'm sure those doctors from India are just itching to live in a dump and have a ton of kids to spray paint walls en masse.

You say I'm lying about a visa not being a green card? Stop embarrassing yourself.

I didn't say anything about visas or green cards.