Actual Neo-Nazis around hither parts?

[Hamilay]

you're right...That's why I also posted a link to this article here. http://www.helsinki.fi/iehc2006/papers3/Spoerer85.pdf

Look. I'm not saying that they didn't fail. I'm also not saying that it isn't a shit idea. But to say that Germany wasn't improved at all is stupid. There wouldn't have been such a unilateral acceptance of their ideals had their system not worked to, at least some degree, improve things.

Germany certainly improved during the Nazi period in some aspects. The question is whether this had anything to do with Nazi policies as opposed to the actions of private individuals and institutions, so 'not really'.

I'm not sure if you posted the right article because it seems to agree with me. If you actually do agree then great I guess.

At the eve of World War II , the
diet and the non-food consumption of German consumers was at most at the pre-crisis level of
the late 1920s. Although American-style mass consumption was on the agenda of the regime,48 it
failed to considerably improve the standard of living, partly deliberately, because it prioritized
armaments production, partly unintentionally, because the ideologically motivated institutional
changes in agriculture proved to be counterproductive.

[GeneralHaNor]

Doesn't mean they haven't drifted into it, or that there are no similiarites

Of course there are similarities. But bringing-up minor things to compare them is obtuse, that's why Godwin is obtuse. None of the things Nazism is typically hated for is common to the Democratic Party.

Opinion, my ideology states that Statism, while not being equal to fascism, is similarly oppressive in all forms. having the effect of being "just as bad" and "just as abhorrent"

I don't see how health care is as abhorrent as genocide.

On the surface it's not
But the means of creating it is
IE, Compulsory Economics, and Coercive Government.

And I'm an "Ends can't ever justify the means" kinda guy.

[Augarundus]

Hitler = Military retard.

Hitler = Social retard.

Hitler = Economic retard (x5)


Hitler destroyed everything in Germany (and Europe... and the world); people who claimed he 'fixed' the German economy have not heard of German medical care or rationing.

[Wamitoria]

Hitler = Military retard.

Hitler = Social retard.

Hitler = Economic retard (x5)


Hitler destroyed everything in Germany (and Europe... and the world); people who claimed he 'fixed' the German economy have not heard of German medical care or rationing.

That's true. Hitlers "Private Oriented Command Economy" was incredibly inefficient. It completely relied on stealing money from other nations/Jews.

[Wamitoria]

-snip-

Actually, he said "LETS INVADE RUSSIA! IT WORKED FOR NAPOLEON!"

^That's why Hitler sucks at military strategy.

[The Parkus Empire]

On the surface it's not
But the means of creating it is
IE, Compulsory Economics, and Coercive Government.

And I'm an "Ends can't ever justify the means" kinda guy.

Then what exactly does justify the means? I suppose you're a guy who thinks Eisenhower was a rascal for using Federal troops to end segregation in schools?

[GeneralHaNor]

1. Opinion

Explain to me how anarchy would work.

After that, pls look at Somalia and see the discrepancy kthxbai

2. Educate yourself on Corporatism and get back to me, then tell me how it differs from Fascism

Think socialism and Stalinism.

It's funny how someone who has no idea what he's talking about go on about 'educating thyself'.

3. Nazi's weren't the only people in history to practice a brand of National Socialism, National Socialism is Equal to Fascism, but not Equal to Nazism, although it is what they practiced,

...Again, anybody who practices National Socialism is a Nazi, because Nazi is a shortening of National Socialist.

wtf are you on about?

1. Catolina, AFL CIO, I could list more
2. Wrong, as proven by someone else who actually knows what they are talking about agreeing with me
3. That only applies if you speak German, I do not, An English person would be NatSoc by your definition
National Socialism is an ideology, not a name, and can't be owned by any one group.

[The Parkus Empire]

It's a good thing you don't have any influence in the way the world is run. I say the same of many, but you quite a bit.

He could have some influence if he'd vote, but he doesn't believe in voting for anyone who doesn't agree with him on everything 100% and will give him everything he wants.

[GeneralHaNor]

On the surface it's not
But the means of creating it is
IE, Compulsory Economics, and Coercive Government.

And I'm an "Ends can't ever justify the means" kinda guy.

Oh, the same kind that goes "TAXES ARE EVIL, DEMOLISH?"

It's a good thing you don't have any influence in the way the world is run. I say the same of many, but you quite a bit.

You wouldn't be alone in your desire to repress me and my ideas, but it doesn't phase me
I am unmoved by the tyranny of the majorities desire to repress my minority ideology

[Poorisolation]

Hum so for those of the "Hitler was the great economist" I would suggest reading the section in Paul Kennedy's Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. For more in depth there are the works of people Alan Bullock aka Lord Bullock and Richard Overy for works specifically on Nazi Germany.

One of the interesting things about Hitler's economic miracle was it absorbed the capacities of German'ys export industries with the result that by 1939 Germany's foreign exchange and thus her ability to pay for essential imports was exhausted.

Yet you could argue that, that was ok because it was all going to the military right? Yet the German Army was one of the least mechanised of the armies of the great powers, with about 10% of its formations motorised or mechanised compared with 20% for France and the USSR and 100% for Britain and the USA (although these were admittedly much smaller armies) . The really interesting thing though is that following mobilisation Das Heer could not keep up with wear and tear on its Motor Vehicles and was essentially demechanising even without being involved in combat operations. So bad was the situation that Franz Halder Chief of the Army Staff actually had to put in place an emergency program program to increase the number of horses used in supply and transport roles in place of motor vehicles.

Thus not only did the German economy not thrive but it can be seen that Hitler could not even create a defence industrial complex equal to his needs, something even the USSR managed to do pull off for the best part of fifty years!

Failed Dictator is Failed.

[Wamitoria]

On the surface it's not
But the means of creating it is
IE, Compulsory Economics, and Coercive Government.

And I'm an "Ends can't ever justify the means" kinda guy.

Well, ignoring the lolburtarian craziness, Nazi Germany had a very strange economic system. I find it best to describe it as a "Private-Oriented Command Economy". It was a very coercive power structure, but not nearly as coercive as the Soviet model of a command economy. That's one of the reasons that Hitler had so much support from industrialists. The system allowed for private property, but at any time, a person's property could be confiscated for the good of Germany. The system also required a war-time economy and for money to be confiscated from political dissidents and Jews.

He definitely sucked at economics, but not just because of the coerciveness.

[GeneralHaNor]

On the surface it's not
But the means of creating it is
IE, Compulsory Economics, and Coercive Government.

And I'm an "Ends can't ever justify the means" kinda guy.

Then what exactly does justify the means? I suppose you're a guy who thinks Eisenhower was a rascal for using Federal troops to end segregation in schools?

Actually I think Eisenhower was a pretty cool guy, he fought Nazi's and wasn't afraid of anything.

I'm not so keen on using troops for anything, I'm more interested however in those students who died at Kent state for Protesting against War.

Not cool

[The Parkus Empire]

Actually I think Eisenhower was a pretty cool guy, he fought Nazi's and wasn't afraid of anything.

I'm not so keen on using troops for anything,

There you go. You think it's unjust to use force to intervene in oppression.

I'm more interested however in those students who died at Kent state for Protesting against War.

Not cool

Unlike those students who were throwing rather large rocks at people.

[GeneralHaNor]

It's a good thing you don't have any influence in the way the world is run. I say the same of many, but you quite a bit.

He could have some influence if he'd vote, but he doesn't believe in voting for anyone who doesn't agree with him on everything 100% and will give him everything he wants.

I'm a fan of voting on my principles, it might make me ineffective at the polls, but that is my right
By voting in favor of things I want, my voice is heard regardless

Because despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage.

[Call to power]

SNIP

those aren't valid sources (they also are horrifically under explained even if I follow the links on a fucking forum)

the key points you need to note in order to pass your year 9 SATS are:

-women being removed from the economy and higher education both reducing unemployment and creating a shortage of skilled labour
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... rev1.shtml

-conscription and the National Labour Front also artificially lowered the unemployment rate as neither was counted an unemployment (this was not a good thing your essentially calling someone on welfare employed for statistical purposes and with a nation in spiralling debt no less)
http://www.wiltshire-ast.co.uk/history- ... -notes.htm

-the banning of trade unions allowed business a free hand in the market to set wages and most importantly work hours, this allowed business to hire more for less and call it efficiency (efficiency that was very useful as Germany bartered for its imports with manufactured goods) this had a disastrous effect on the German economy that would of boiled over once the Nazi state had to inevitably cut military spending with the elimination of consumer spending (note: a consumer economy employs people)

the lack of consumer goods also made Germans save more leading to a boom in holiday resorts which is (again I will state) where this myth seems to come from

http://www.wiltshire-ast.co.uk/history- ... -notes.htm

-loans: its important to expand on the role of women in Nazi Germany 1K in Marks was awarded as a loan on the birth of your first child with 250M being removed from the loan for each subsequent child, combine this with loans for cars and you can easily see the façade this policy will give in terms of middle class families (you are of course drastically distorting the economy by doing this which affected just how much the German currency was valued at but that's for another time)
http://www.wiltshire-ast.co.uk/history- ... -notes.htm

extra credit:
Germany used Mefo bills during this period initially as a means to secretly pay for re-armament (the thing that gave million of Germans jobs) but the policy was never scrapped as Germany would not of been able to secure the loans needed to finance its rearmament partly as it hid Billions of debt using this method (something that stops you getting loans) and also because it was illegal for Germany to take out loans with a greater interest than 4.5%

So Germany had essentially brought itself time by committing outright fraud (a possible example of what would of happened when this bombshell got out would be Greece earlier this year only without any bailout)

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1354847

you're right...That's why I also posted a link to this article here. http://www.helsinki.fi/iehc2006/papers3/Spoerer85.pdf

did you even read this article? it proves your argument wrong itself and I skimmed the bloody thing

Hitler destroyed everything in Germany (and Europe... and the world); people who claimed he 'fixed' the German economy have not heard of German medical care or rationing.

yes but you have to be patient with him hes like 13 or something so in all likelihood he hasn't

[GeneralHaNor]

Actually I think Eisenhower was a pretty cool guy, he fought Nazi's and wasn't afraid of anything.

I'm not so keen on using troops for anything,

There you go. You think it's unjust to use force to intervene in oppression.

I'm more interested however in those students who died at Kent state for Protesting against War.

Not cool

Unlike those students who were throwing rather large rocks at people.

point 1, forces beyond my control my control before I was even born
The Alcoholics Prayer,
Give me the strength to survive the things I cannot change
The Courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
I'm a pacifist, but if the rest of you barbarians insist on clubbing each other's brains out, by all means, decrease the surplus population and leave more land for me

Point 2, Bleck, National Guard troops shouldn't even had been there to start.

[ChaosPetra]

Actual Neo-Nazis might not be so eager so broadcast their ideologies to the general public.

[The Parkus Empire]

point 1, forces beyond my control my control before I was even born
The Alcoholics Prayer,
Give me the strength to survive the things I cannot change
The Courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
I'm a pacifist, but if the rest of you barbarians insist on clubbing each other's brains out, by all means, decrease the surplus population and leave more land for me

I don't pray, I do. Violence gets more done than any prayer ever does. That's the reason people like you never change the government.

Point 2, Bleck, National Guard troops shouldn't even had been there to start.

The students were barbarians, so I think it made sense.

[Wamitoria]

Actual Neo-Nazis might not be so eager so broadcast their ideologies to the general public.

We had a 50-page thread where they did just that about a month ago.

[Needell]

Look, just throwing it out there so that you can see that I am in no way defending Hitler:I'm Jewish. Now, the NAZI party, despite all their downsides, did truly boost the economy. He introduced a new currency that was actually worth something and built up private industry (because that is the economic side of Fascism-be careful of what you are really saying Obama is if you don't get it yourself). Now, after the war, naturally, their currency fell, but stayed at a generally stable rate. So you can hate the guys guts, but what some of you people are saying is bullshit to the 12th degree.

[Wamitoria]

but what some of you people are saying is bullshit to the 12th degree.

Welcome to NSG.

[The Parkus Empire]

Welcome to NSG.

Another way to put NSG in a nutshell: "Your mom is subjective."

[Call to power]

He introduced a new currency that was actually worth something

no he didn't that was fucking Gustav Stresemann in the goddamn 20's

built up private industry

only in the sense that arms companies made billions whilst the rest of the economy withered

Now, after the war, naturally, their currency fell, but stayed at a generally stable rate.

only it was replaced in 48 so no

[Hydesland]

Look, just throwing it out there so that you can see that I am in no way defending Hitler:I'm Jewish. Now, the NAZI party, despite all their downsides, did truly boost the economy. He introduced a new currency that was actually worth something and built up private industry (because that is the economic side of Fascism-be careful of what you are really saying Obama is if you don't get it yourself). Now, after the war, naturally, their currency fell, but stayed at a generally stable rate. So you can hate the guys guts, but what some of you people are saying is bullshit to the 12th degree.

Hitler didn't do any of this in the least. Hitler found the economy an incredibly dull matter, in fact, the person (if anyone, because nobody did really, it was just a natural recovery in reality) who did help improve the economy was Schacht, who was barely even a Nazi and didn't exactly conform to the wishes of his superiors, which forced him to leave eventually. But the extent they truly helped the economy is highly disputed. For one thing, they cheekily decided to not include women in unemployment statistics, to make it look as though unemployment had been actually cut by half.

[Poorisolation]

Look, just throwing it out there so that you can see that I am in no way defending Hitler:I'm Jewish. Now, the NAZI party, despite all their downsides, did truly boost the economy. He introduced a new currency that was actually worth something and built up private industry (because that is the economic side of Fascism-be careful of what you are really saying Obama is if you don't get it yourself). Now, after the war, naturally, their currency fell, but stayed at a generally stable rate. So you can hate the guys guts, but what some of you people are saying is bullshit to the 12th degree.

Just throwing it out there but after a depression like the one that Weimar Germany had been through my communist step-grandmother could have pointed to an economic uplift, even now, when she is dead.

The point can be made though that given the distortion to the economy that Hitler inflicted an ongoing upswing of the German economy that should have occurred did not. Not only that but the short termism of Hitler's economic polices was so short term that by 1939 the only way Germany could afford to feed itself and maintain its armaments spending was by looting its neighbours, in fact a case can be made that it would have collapsed already if it had not been in a position to loot the Czech economy.

Not only that but seeing as the military was the prime beneficiary of the Nazi economic program it is quite extra-ordinary how weak it was in key areas such as the supply of motor transport and lets not even begin to laugh at the joke of a surface fleet. True the Armed forces managed to perform above expectations but only against weak opposition, note the decline in effectiveness post 1943 and that was the result of Army doctrines adopted long before Hitler came to power.

The fact is that most industrialised nations with the notable exception of the USA had managed to recover form the Depression by about 1938 but only Germany had a balance of payments crisis. Not really a thumbs up for great economic management there.

Note: apologies to Hydesland I seem to have simply repeated a lot of your argument there.