Is America in a permanent decline?

[Sremski okrug]

Interesting. Y'know, we've had Medicare for almost sixty years now, and our modern welfare system for fourty, and we haven't had much trouble at all. In fact, we ran massive budget surpluses for a large part of the 90's and 00's, with little trouble at all. Heck, even the Economist praised our banking system. So why are we doomed, exactly?

Canada is doomed from stagnation, nothing good will come of the country. The economy is stagnant, wont go bad, but will never really boom. A budget surplus of what? Canada has a population of 34 million people, America 310 million. Welfare and universal might work for you, you have a tenth of our population and i emphasize might. Canada has little if no military presence in the world, social influence is minimum other then the potheads in the states wanting to be like Canadian, i guess you can call that a social breakthrough. Canada has stagnant economy, no military presence, little social influence, Canada is like the random guy at a party that stands in the corner and people realize he's there but they either dont care or are creeped out by him. That's Canada.

What does population have to do with a nations economy? Germany has a advanced economy with a small population, Singapore have an outstanding economy and one of the worlds busiest shipping ports. Canada has a massive presence in the international community, it's in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Canada is the guy at the party everyone respects, sometimes some annoying idiot keeps on trying to discredit the guy, nobody pays attention because Canada is awesome.

[Lackadaisical2]

I see you haven't read many of NH's posts

They're quite wonderful in their own way, but have a tendency to ramble on far beyond anything which was meant to be undertaken. I mostly enjoy the stories.

You realize brevity means short, and few posts on here wind up being short, right?

eh, yes I know what brevity is, and I'm saying that NH's posts can go far and away beyond what NSG usually does. Plenty of posts in this thread have been quite short in fact.

[The House of Brent]

The "tallest, longest, biggest" are as related to good engineering as they are to good penises....

I agree that tallest, biggest, etc doesn,t always mean the best. However, back then these things were considered a challenge AND a symbols of pride and achievement. The U.S. WANTED to excel then. We talk about how great we are now, but are we really? Yes, we do still have many good engineers, but when you look at the dismal decline in math and science scores in the US how long will this remain true? Already we have to import many doctors, nurses, computer engineers, and other highly skilled workers because we cannot fill the demand with our own citizens.

As for being a cheerleader for the US, I have no problem with it. I had no intention of being America's greatest detractor either. I initially raised the question because I've been thinking a lot about this stuff lately and wanted other people's views. They don't have to agree with mine.

[The House of Brent]

Time for the Greater Yankee Reich, amirite?

lol. i used to think that americans would make terrible nazis, but these days i'm beginning to think we would make the best ones. it amazes me how many americans can still think obama is a muslim and a foreigner, contrary to ALL evidence. take one cup of gullibility, a teaspoon of bigotry and blend with fear/insecurity and fundamentalism. let simmer a while and...well... Heil Amerika!

[Sociobiology]

How do you propose we do that? WTO NAFTA and CAFTA, etc. restrict what we can do both in subsidizing and dumping products, and especially tariffs. The two tiered system in education is prevalent due mostly to cultural reasons, although I suppose opening up college for free to citizens could ameliorate that somewhat, we'd actually have to force all the richer people to move back into cities ever since we started doing busing. Even then, I'm not convinced it'll have a significant effect.

If the trade agreements are restricting what we can do, then we need to pull out of them. Our government's policies should put America first; anything that is detrimental to our economy should be dumped immediately.

That would be called mercantilism its been tried before as has been proven again and again to lower the wealth of the countries that try it.

[Sociobiology]

Militarily, I think the U.S. is in permanent decline. Our fighting in Vietnam, the Gulf War, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq has been pretty half-assed. Obviously, a lot of the problem is people's attitude toward war rather than the resources at our disposal; but the problems seem to carry over from one war to the next. We were attacked on 9/11, and the half-assed attitude stayed.

Economically, it's hard to say. Things are bad right now, and there are reasons the recession is dragging on; but we still have good infrastructure and a lot of resources. I remember being in elementary school or middle school and hearing a teacher explain that the U.S. consumes more than it produces, and I remember thinking, "Isn't that a problem?" We can't expect to stay the richest country in the world if we consume more than we produce. That sort of basic economic concepts go over the heads of many Americans, which is why we drove our economy into the crapper. If people get it through their heads that they are not entitled to the American Dream^TM until they earn the money to pay for it, we'll be fine. Sadly, a lot of people don't seem to get it. There are people trying to turn things around, but it will take a lot of work. The growing interest lately in renewable resources, sustainable development, and fiscal responsibility might be enough to get the U.S. back on its feet economically.

The all-American culture of happy, shiny, flag-waving, god-fearing white people is definitely in decline. That has both benefits (less bigotry) and drawbacks (more divorces and broken homes.)

actually our aging infrastructure is one of the major problems. most of it is severely outdated compare to other industrial nations.
The US is still great at war we just cant occupy worth a $#!#, which may be a good thing in the long run.

[Bydlostan (Ancient)]

If the trade agreements are restricting what we can do, then we need to pull out of them. Our government's policies should put America first; anything that is detrimental to our economy should be dumped immediately.

That would be called mercantilism its been tried before as has been proven again and again to lower the wealth of the countries that try it.

There is nothing wrong with protectionism, especially against highly dissimilar markets. A high-wage, high standard of living country should probably not share in a market with a country that uses slave labor.

[Sociobiology]

That would be called mercantilism its been tried before as has been proven again and again to lower the wealth of the countries that try it.

There is nothing wrong with protectionism, especially against highly dissimilar markets. A high-wage, high standard of living country should probably not share in a market with a country that uses slave labor.

but thats not what he said, he want total protectionism which always fails because generalists loose in a world market, because they cant compete,
the real power of free trade is simple take a smaller percentage of the pie but make the whole pie bigger.

[Bydlostan (Ancient)]

There is nothing wrong with protectionism, especially against highly dissimilar markets. A high-wage, high standard of living country should probably not share in a market with a country that uses slave labor.

but thats not what he said, he want total protectionism which always fails because generalists loose in a world market, because they cant compete,
the real power of free trade is simple take a smaller percentage of the pie but make the whole pie bigger.

True, but the USA is large and diverse enough too be a viable generalist economy. It doesn't need to bee heavily reliant on foriegn imports.

Plus I think the greater energy costs in the future will undo a lot of what makes a globalized economy profitable, with the high cost of shipping, local, domestically produced products will be more competitive.

[Angleter]

Yes, but it will be long. Spain started to decline around 1640, but only in 1810 did it lose South America and finally drop off the Great Powers list. Its successor, the UK, has been in decline since 1920, and remains a Great Power today.

[Offenheim]

Yes, but it will be long. Spain started to decline around 1640, but only in 1810 did it lose South America and finally drop off the Great Powers list. Its successor, the UK, has been in decline since 1920, and remains a Great Power today.

The UK remains a great power merely because they're treated like one and due to the "Special Relationship" with the US. Otherwise, they're a second-rate power. And you could say "nukes", but India and Pakistan have nukes, and no one's calling them great powers.

[Sremski okrug]

Yes, but it will be long. Spain started to decline around 1640, but only in 1810 did it lose South America and finally drop off the Great Powers list. Its successor, the UK, has been in decline since 1920, and remains a Great Power today.

The UK remains a great power merely because they're treated like one and due to the "Special Relationship" with the US. Otherwise, they're a second-rate power. And you could say "nukes", but India and Pakistan have nukes, and no one's calling them great powers.

The United Kingdom has a wealth of international companies and still has a presence on the international community.

[Offenheim]

The UK remains a great power merely because they're treated like one and due to the "Special Relationship" with the US. Otherwise, they're a second-rate power. And you could say "nukes", but India and Pakistan have nukes, and no one's calling them great powers.

The United Kingdom has a wealth of international companies and still has a presence on the international community.

Right. Because no other nations have those and wouldn't be considered great powers.

[Cobhanglica]

There is nothing wrong with protectionism, especially against highly dissimilar markets. A high-wage, high standard of living country should probably not share in a market with a country that uses slave labor.

but thats not what he said, he want total protectionism which always fails because generalists loose in a world market, because they cant compete,
the real power of free trade is simple take a smaller percentage of the pie but make the whole pie bigger.

How does making the whole pie bigger help us if we are getting a smaller percentage of it? It doesn't benefit America one bit for more wealth to flow into China and India. We have two options; either we impose trade barriers to eliminate Asia's competitive advantage, or we destroy their competitive advantage by brute force.

[Offenheim]

but thats not what he said, he want total protectionism which always fails because generalists loose in a world market, because they cant compete,
the real power of free trade is simple take a smaller percentage of the pie but make the whole pie bigger.

How does making the whole pie bigger help us if we are getting a smaller percentage of it? It doesn't benefit America one bit for more wealth to flow into China and India. We have two options; either we impose trade barriers to eliminate Asia's competitive advantage, or we destroy their competitive advantage by brute force.

Or we do neither and deal with it.

[Somewhereistonia]

America is definitely in permanent decline. All this post-modernist nonsense and rights. The US should get back to the aims of freedom and democracy, 'Rights' are for people who have no ambition.

[Caninope]

That would be called mercantilism its been tried before as has been proven again and again to lower the wealth of the countries that try it.

There is nothing wrong with protectionism, especially against highly dissimilar markets. A high-wage, high standard of living country should probably not share in a market with a country that uses slave labor.

Actually the problem is that increases prices, promotes a manufacturing as opposed to service based economy, and that higher standards in other countries can be caused by that exportation.

[Caninope]

America is definitely in permanent decline. All this post-modernist nonsense and rights. The US should get back to the aims of freedom and democracy, 'Rights' are for people who have no ambition.

That's so contradictory.

And the early US was a republic, not a democracy.

[Unchecked Expansion]

How does making the whole pie bigger help us if we are getting a smaller percentage of it? I

Because you increase the pie more than yo decrease your slice.
It also helps if you ensure that there will be pie again tomorrow.

I can't think how to extend this metaphor any further now...

[Volnotov]

Oh well, the U.S. had its 5 minutes of fame, but as history shows - nothing lasts forever.

[Offenheim]

Oh well, the U.S. had its 5 minutes of fame, but as history shows - nothing lasts forever.

The phrase is "15 minutes of fame" and to be sure, we're still in them, if you want to put it like that. I'd say more like 92 years of fame and still going. Like it or not, the United States is still the dominant nation on earth. How can we tell? Well, the elections of head of government for other countries does not involve polling the world.

[Satirius]

Pax Americana is over, make way for Pax Somalia

hail unrestrained liberty o/

[Cobhanglica]

How does making the whole pie bigger help us if we are getting a smaller percentage of it? It doesn't benefit America one bit for more wealth to flow into China and India. We have two options; either we impose trade barriers to eliminate Asia's competitive advantage, or we destroy their competitive advantage by brute force.

Or we do neither and deal with it.

So you want us to just roll over and die?

[The Evil Reich]

There is nothing wrong with protectionism, especially against highly dissimilar markets. A high-wage, high standard of living country should probably not share in a market with a country that uses slave labor.

Actually the problem is that increases prices, promotes a manufacturing as opposed to service based economy, and that higher standards in other countries can be caused by that exportation.

A manufacturing economy would actually be a good thing for our long term economic prospects. Too much protectionism can lower the standard of living by stifling competition and limiting access to good products from overseas, but getting Americans into more manufacturing would not be a problem at all.

[Nobel Hobos]

Brevity is not one of NSG's strong suits.

Why are you trying to make it one?

I see you haven't read many of NH's posts

They're quite wonderful in their own way, but have a tendency to ramble on far beyond anything which was meant to be undertaken. I mostly enjoy the stories.

I'm trying to break that habit. It's rude to rave at people, particularly if the rave begins with "I agree".