Welsh Girl is America's Perfect Teen

[Innsmothe]

And what?

History of human civilisation...?

I think I am lost.

[Vonners]

History of human civilisation...?

I think I am lost.

Yes. Yes indeed. And I am right next to you!

My point re the Berbers is that they have been around since Antiquity (Heroditus) but also in 'pre-history'...hope that clarifies...

[Rambhutan]

You think they wore pith helmets and sipped pink gin

But that's what I do when I'm in Africa...

Or maybe the magic nazi pixies protected a small group of delicate fair skinned individuals with parasols...

Well, they weren't magic nazi pixies. I think she was Somali.

Carruthers old chap, is that you?

[Rambhutan]

I think I am lost.

Yes. Yes indeed. And I am right next to you!

My point re the Berbers is that they have been around since Antiquity (Heroditus) but also in 'pre-history'...hope that clarifies...

But that was a long time after everybones ancestors first left Africa. Herodotus was writing about 2500 years ago, when it comes to our ancesters leaving Africa it was at least 50,000 years ago - there were no Berbers then.

[The Archregimancy]

My point re the Berbers is that they have been around since Antiquity (Heroditus) but also in 'pre-history'...hope that clarifies...

Yes, but that in turn is a misleading point when used to counter Rambhutan's point about everyone having African ancestry to note that our ancestors almost certainly had lovely dark skins.

Modern DNA analysis strongly suggests that the Berbers arrived in North Africa fairly recently as far as the grand scheme of things is concerned. While they've undoubtedly picked up some sub-Saharan DNA along the way, one of their closest mitochondrial links is with, believe it or not, the Saami of northern Scandinavia.

While up to a third of their DNA is from groups that probably reached North Africa c.50,000 years ago (which is still a good 10,000 years after Australian Aborigines reached Australia), the majority of their mitochondrial DNA - some 50-90% - is cognate with European DNA, suggesting (particularly with the Saami connection) a relatively recent late glacial expansion from a common Western European core.

So yes, even if we take the Herodotus references as undisputed - which it isn't - the majority of Berber ancestors were a relatively recent arrival in North Africa when we take the totality of homo sapiens migratory patterns out of Africa into account.

Honestly, don't they teach anyone palaeoanthropology anymore

[Nobel Hobos]

My point re the Berbers is that they have been around since Antiquity (Heroditus) but also in 'pre-history'...hope that clarifies...

Yes, but that in turn is a misleading point when used to counter Rambhutan's point about everyone having African ancestry to note that our ancestors almost certainly had lovely dark skins.

Modern DNA analysis strongly suggests that the Berbers arrived in North Africa fairly recently as far as the grand scheme of things is concerned. While they've undoubtedly picked up some sub-Saharan DNA along the way, one of their closest mitochondrial links is with, believe it or not, the Saami of northern Scandinavia.

While up to a third of their DNA is from groups that probably reached North Africa c.50,000 years ago (which is still a good 10,000 years after Australian Aborigines reached Australia), the majority of their mitochondrial DNA - some 50-90% - is cognate with European DNA, suggesting (particularly with the Saami connection) a relatively recent late glacial expansion from a common Western European core.

So yes, even if we take the Herodotus references as undisputed - which it isn't - the majority of Berber ancestors were a relatively recent arrival in North Africa when we take the totality of homo sapiens migratory patterns out of Africa into account.

Honestly, don't they teach anyone palaeoanthropology anymore

Not much. I think my Geography teacher was an English Lit graduate, and my biology teacher didn't seem to know much about anything but Rugby.

[The Archregimancy]

Anyway, as to that whole Berber / Saami thing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199377/?tool=pmcentrez

Abstract:

The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.

It looks like slightly faulty memory may have led me to overemphasise the closeness of the Berber-Saami genetic link, but my basic point remains sound.