Uneducated Police

[Bendira]

Can you answer my question from earlier, where I asked you where you personally feel the justification for your job comes from? Like, what sets you apart from a murderer or a kidnapper? Is there any ethical consideration to your job whatsoever?

My job is to restrict the amount of crime in the city and serve the public taxpayers.

I think a better question to ask is why you think my job as a police officer is unjustified.

Because you don't protect me and you don't serve me, and you don't represent me. I am against marijuana laws, and when you come into my house and shoot my child or shoot my dogs or destroy my property or beat me for my "own good", your not protecting me, nor are you serving me.

[Achaea-Graecia]

My job is to restrict the amount of crime in the city and serve the public taxpayers.

I think a better question to ask is why you think my job as a police officer is unjustified.

Because you don't protect me and you don't serve me, and you don't represent me. I am against marijuana laws, and when you come into my house and shoot my child or shoot my dogs or destroy my property or beat me for my "own good", your not protecting me, nor are you serving me.

That's probably the worst representation of the police force (particularly in America) that I have ever heard, and especially since I personally am lenient on marijuana laws (see my first post in this thread).

[Bendira]

Me and my friends get together in a warehouse in the center of town. We put an ad out in the paper letting people know they should come vote for local police chief. Only 20 people show up to vote. They vote me in as police chief. All 20 of us write down one very simple rule "No Breatheing Allowed unless you are a public official or civil servant". We all vote on the law. We now declare juristiction over the entire city. We drive around town, shooting people we suspect of breathing, and kidnapping them and bringing them back to our warehouse.

How is that different than police? I received a mandate from the public when I invited people to come vote for police comissioner. Not my fault they didn't show up. They don't have a right to criticize my law since they weren't there to vote on it.

This is quite literally a textbook example of a strawman fallacy. You know fully well that this would never happen for a nigh-infinite number of reasons. The police forces work on a basis of the social contract theory, whereby the majority of people put into place a system of governance (Of which the police is part), and institute self-regulating and externally-regulating measures within said governance (Bill(s) of Rights, constitutions, police codes, etc) so as to prevent abuses of power.

Oh my! Somebody brings up social contract theory! An intelligent debate might arise! Oh my!

I never signed any social contract. Therefor its not a contract at all.


If you want to know what I mean in my example, me and my 20 friends wrote our own social contract. Anybody that lies in our juristiction after that moment, or is born into that juristiction, now falls under our own social contract theory.

[The Future Kingdom]

Didn't come =/= accepts the law.

It dosn't matter whether they accept the law or not, they didn't come vote. They don't have a right to an opinion.

1. The fact is that government does have jurisdiction over a country. Don't like it, go somewhere else.

Me and my 20 friends pass another vote saying that anybody leaving our juristiction shall be shot. We have the mandate of the public, so its all gravy baby.

2. Police do not randomly go around killing people who break minor laws. You see, your punishments are OTT and the majority of people would not agree to them. The country however, the majority of people in the country are happy to tolerate the laws and if they disagree with some they break them, because they think they won't get caught.

It dosn't matter whether the majority of people agree with them or not. The fact is, they didn't show up to vote, and therefor their opinion dosn't matter.

everyone has the right to an opinion

[Bendira]

Because you don't protect me and you don't serve me, and you don't represent me. I am against marijuana laws, and when you come into my house and shoot my child or shoot my dogs or destroy my property or beat me for my "own good", your not protecting me, nor are you serving me.

That's probably the worst representation of the police force (particularly in America) that I have ever heard, and especially since I personally am lenient on marijuana laws (see my first post in this thread).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b-67q0vlCw

Thats standard procedure. Were those guys protecting or serving that guy when they broke into his home, disharged their firearms killing his family pets right in front of his children? And then they have the balls to charge the parents with endangering the welfare of a child for having a small amount of weed in the house. Please explain how thats protecting or serving anybody?

[The Future Kingdom]

That's probably the worst representation of the police force (particularly in America) that I have ever heard, and especially since I personally am lenient on marijuana laws (see my first post in this thread).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b-67q0vlCw

Thats standard procedure. Were those guys protecting or serving that guy when they broke into his home, disharged their firearms killing his family pets right in front of his children? And then they have the balls to charge the parents with endangering the welfare of a child for having a small amount of weed in the house. Please explain how thats protecting or serving anybody?

Youtube.......... FUNNY AS HELL i'm glad no one will believe that bullshit lol

Edit: btw learn how the SWAT do things they do not have a video camera there and they surround the house........ that video is sooooo fake it ain't even funny they do not fire unless fired apon that is how they do things

[The Sheepdogs]

I'm a police officer and I tend to overlook certain laws, like the no whistling on Sundays rule. That's just plain silly.

In all seriousness, I'm an American police officer who abides by the law... ever since I became a police officer, that is. Unofficially I am pro-legalization for marijuana, but until it is legalized, I have to uphold the law and arrest any offenders, although sometimes I let them go with a warning.

I have no problems with upholding any of the state or federal laws, besides marijuana usage and maybe issuing parking tickets. Except for those, I don't think there are any immorality issues with the laws I'm required to enforce.

Alright! Brotherhood of the bacon! *High Five*

I'm with you, I'm not aware of too many laws (at least misdemeanor and petty offenses) that I'm required to make an arrest on or issue a summons (DV being an exception). You can enforce the law without making an arrest. Although Marijuana possession I almost always cite for (here its simple a petty offense if its under 2 ounces, and if its under 2 ounces it is a non-arrestable offense) but I do that so that I can make sure I start a chain of custody for my evidence and no one accuses me of pocketing it for personal use.

[Achaea-Graecia]

That's probably the worst representation of the police force (particularly in America) that I have ever heard, and especially since I personally am lenient on marijuana laws (see my first post in this thread).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b-67q0vlCw

Thats standard procedure. Were those guys protecting or serving that guy when they broke into his home, disharged their firearms killing his family pets right in front of his children? And then they have the balls to charge the parents with endangering the welfare of a child for having a small amount of weed in the house. Please explain how thats protecting or serving anybody?

Well, for one, killing the pet, not plural, singular, was irresponsibility on their part, and the family should probably seek placing charges. Secondly, as I am what as known as a BEAT COP, I wouldn't be involved in armed drug raids. I practice observing and reporting, sometimes arresting. Thirdly, does the term paramilitary mean anything to you?

[Person012345]

Secondly, as I am what as known as a BEAT COP, I wouldn't be involved in armed drug raids. I practice observing and reporting, sometimes arresting.

And also OPPRESSING BENDIRA!

[Bendira]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b-67q0vlCw

Thats standard procedure. Were those guys protecting or serving that guy when they broke into his home, disharged their firearms killing his family pets right in front of his children? And then they have the balls to charge the parents with endangering the welfare of a child for having a small amount of weed in the house. Please explain how thats protecting or serving anybody?

Well, for one, killing the pet, not plural, singular, was irresponsibility on their part, and the family should probably seek placing charges. Secondly, as I am what as known as a BEAT COP, I wouldn't be involved in armed drug raids. I practice observing and reporting, sometimes arresting.

Well im glad you have the ethical resolve not to be one of the armed assault crews. But the police weren't protecting or serving that guy. Please tell me, if you are arresting me for a law that I do not agree with, are you protecting and serving me? And also, you realize that, through taxes, this guy that had his house broken into and shot up most likely payed these guys to do this to him? Can you possibly morally/ethically justify that?

[Avenio]

I never signed any social contract. Therefor its not a contract at all.

Quite right, seeing as it's not a contract in any sense of the word. It's merely a literary device meant to describe the phenomena. The social contract describes the formation of systems of law and/or governance based upon the consent of the governed, ie, that the majority of the people under the social contract consent to it. In another case, social contracts can form in non-governmental settings as well; it is a nigh-universally accepted unspoken social rule that yelling 'Fire!' in a theatre is verboten, and breaking this 'rule' can bring upon harsh penalties to your relationships.

Society, as a self-regulating organism, maintains its cohesivity through these unspoken or written rules, which we call the social 'contract'.

If you want to know what I mean in my example, me and my 20 friends wrote our own social contract. Anybody that lies in our juristiction after that moment, or is born into that juristiction, now falls under our own social contract theory.

If you and your 20 friends were the only people in your town, sure. That's a social contract. If you're only 20 out of 400, then no, that is not a social contract, because chances are the rest of the 400 don't agree.

[Bendira]

I never signed any social contract. Therefor its not a contract at all.

Quite right, seeing as it's not a contract in any sense of the word. It's merely a literary device meant to describe the phenomena. The social contract describes the formation of systems of law and/or governance based upon the consent of the governed, ie, that the majority of the people under the social contract consent to it. In another case, social contracts can form in non-governmental settings as well; it is a nigh-universally accepted unspoken social rule that yelling 'Fire!' in a theatre is verboten, and breaking this 'rule' can bring upon harsh penalties to your relationships.

Society, as a self-regulating organism, maintains its cohesivity through these unspoken or written rules, which we call the social 'contract'.

If you want to know what I mean in my example, me and my 20 friends wrote our own social contract. Anybody that lies in our juristiction after that moment, or is born into that juristiction, now falls under our own social contract theory.

If you and your 20 friends were the only people in your town, sure. That's a social contract. If you're only 20 out of 400, then no, that is not a social contract, because chances are the rest of the 400 don't agree.

I don't agree to the social contract theory. Lets assume I am in the minority in doing so. Are you saying that social contract theory only serves the majority, and does not serve the minority who do not agree with it?

[Achaea-Graecia]

I'm a police officer and I tend to overlook certain laws, like the no whistling on Sundays rule. That's just plain silly.

In all seriousness, I'm an American police officer who abides by the law... ever since I became a police officer, that is. Unofficially I am pro-legalization for marijuana, but until it is legalized, I have to uphold the law and arrest any offenders, although sometimes I let them go with a warning.

I have no problems with upholding any of the state or federal laws, besides marijuana usage and maybe issuing parking tickets. Except for those, I don't think there are any immorality issues with the laws I'm required to enforce.

Alright! Brotherhood of the bacon! *High Five*

I'm with you, I'm not aware of too many laws (at least misdemeanor and petty offenses) that I'm required to make an arrest on or issue a summons (DV being an exception). You can enforce the law without making an arrest. Although Marijuana possession I almost always cite for (here its simple a petty offense if its under 2 ounces, and if its under 2 ounces it is a non-arrestable offense) but I do that so that I can make sure I start a chain of custody for my evidence and no one accuses me of pocketing it for personal use.

Click for good news.
And although I'll be glad that your laws allow 2 ounces for possession, I'm pretty sure you mean grams. One ounce is equal to 30 grams, enough for about twenty joints.

@Bendira This.

[Bendira]

Alright! Brotherhood of the bacon! *High Five*

I'm with you, I'm not aware of too many laws (at least misdemeanor and petty offenses) that I'm required to make an arrest on or issue a summons (DV being an exception). You can enforce the law without making an arrest. Although Marijuana possession I almost always cite for (here its simple a petty offense if its under 2 ounces, and if its under 2 ounces it is a non-arrestable offense) but I do that so that I can make sure I start a chain of custody for my evidence and no one accuses me of pocketing it for personal use.

Click for good news.
And although I'll be glad that your laws allow 2 ounces for possession, I'm pretty sure you mean grams. One ounce is equal to 30 grams, enough for about twenty joints.

@Bendira This.

You think the video is fake?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XmjNxKOQvg

[Panzerjaeger]

Click for good news.
And although I'll be glad that your laws allow 2 ounces for possession, I'm pretty sure you mean grams. One ounce is equal to 30 grams, enough for about twenty joints.

@Bendira This.

You think the video is fake?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XmjNxKOQvg

Can you ever just answer something without posting random Youtube videos? I mean really it is obnoxious and 9/10 has nothing to do with anything you are trying to prove.

[Bendira]

You think the video is fake?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XmjNxKOQvg

Can you ever just answer something without posting random Youtube videos? I mean really it is obnoxious and 9/10 has nothing to do with anything you are trying to prove.

Shhhh, the big boys are talking now.

[Panzerjaeger]

Can you ever just answer something without posting random Youtube videos? I mean really it is obnoxious and 9/10 has nothing to do with anything you are trying to prove.

Shhhh, the big boys are talking now.

Your childish behavior is nonsensical again I repeat can you ever answer something without a youtube video, strawman or being antagonistic?

[Achaea-Graecia]

No, the video is real, just the actors and the stunts portrayed are fake.

[The Cat-Tribe]

This "debate" is exceedingly odd and tedious and I won't pretend to have done more than skim sections of it.

I find it very, very odd, however, that most posters seem to believe (regardless of whether they agree or disagree with the OP) that law enforcement officers are not/do not consider questions of ethics and/or are not bound by codes of ethics. This is a false premise, as any number of simple Google searches would have & should have revealed to anyone that bothered.

Some relevant links I found within just a few minutes:
International Association of Chiefs of Police: Introduction to the Ethics Toolkit (and copious related links including: What is the Law Enforcement Oath of Honor?; and Model Policy on Standards of Conduct.)

U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice, Enhancing Police Integrity, December 2005 by Carl B. Klochars, Sanja Kutnjak Ivkovich, Maria R. Haberfeld (16p pdf)

"Ethics and law enforcement," The FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, Dec, 2002

U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice, Citizen Review of Police: Approaches and Implementation, 2001, by Peter Finn (185p pdf)

U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice,Measurement of Police Integrity: Research in Brief, May 2000, by Carl B. Klockars, Sanja K. Ivkovich, William E. Harver, Maria R. Haberfeld (11p pdf)

U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice,Police Attitudes Toward Abuse of Authority: Findings From a National Study, Research in Brief, 2000, by David Weisburd, Rosann Greenspan, Edwin E. Hamilton, Hubert Williams, Kellie A. Bryant (15p pdf)

U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, National Institute of Justice,Police Integrity: Public Service With Honor -- A Partnership Between the National Institute of Justice and the Office of Community Oriented Policing Services, 1997, by Stephen J. Gaffigan, Phyllis P. McDonald, Ed.D. (100p pdf)

http://www.google.com/search?q=police+d ... 1I7ADFA_en

http://www.ehow.com/about_6684489_seatt ... ining.html

http://josephsoninstitute.org/policing/training/

http://www.dcwatch.com/police/971215.htm

http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/cje/html/policeethics.html

(sorry this starts out more detailed and then gets rushed and cut off. RL intervenes.)

[Bendira]

No, the video is real, just the actors and the stunts portrayed are fake.

I can't blame you for not wanting to accept that is what actually happens during SWAT raids, but it is. That video was reported on by many credible news outlets.

Lets move on to a new question though. Do you believe it to be moral to extort money out of me (taxation) and then use that money to pay for the guns, bullets, and cars you use to arrest me for laws I may or may not agree with?

[Panzerjaeger]

No, the video is real, just the actors and the stunts portrayed are fake.

I can't blame you for not wanting to accept that is what actually happens during SWAT raids, but it is. That video was reported on by many credible news outlets.

Lets move on to a new question though. Do you believe it to be moral to extort money out of me (taxation) and then use that money to pay for the guns, bullets, and cars you use to arrest me for laws I may or may not agree with?

I didn't realize US Laws had to rely solely on whether you approve of them or not.

[Achaea-Graecia]

Snip'd the good stuff

Not true in my case but thank you for the insight good sir.

[Avenio]

I don't agree to the social contract theory.

Interesting. You do realize that the notion of natural law is essentially a social contract, yes?

Lets assume I am in the minority in doing so. Are you saying that social contract theory only serves the majority, and does not serve the minority who do not agree with it?

Unfortunately, yes. Thankfully, by the nature of the complex and multi-layered conglomerated mash of societies we live in, and the multitude of opinions contained therein, most of the 'laws' codified in the social contract are benign due to the regulating influence of having so many people contributing to their construction and maintaining. This is the nature of humanity; any modern society, no matter how free it is, will have a social contract, as it allows greater social cohesion and collective stability, something that is ultimately necessary for practically all forms of civilization to exist. The contract may take the form of a government/codified system of laws, an unspoken moral code (Ie Ten Commandments, civil manners, etc) or even something like natural law, whereby society ostracizes those who infringe on it, but it will always exist in some form, whether those who disagree with it like it or not.

[Achaea-Graecia]

I can't blame you for not wanting to accept that is what actually happens during SWAT raids, but it is. That video was reported on by many credible news outlets.

Lets move on to a new question though. Do you believe it to be moral to extort money out of me (taxation) and then use that money to pay for the guns, bullets, and cars you use to arrest me for laws I may or may not agree with?

I didn't realize US Laws had to rely solely on whether you approve of them or not.

The majority of the population agrees with the laws. That's what a democracy is.

[Panzerjaeger]

I didn't realize US Laws had to rely solely on whether you approve of them or not.

The majority of the population agrees with the laws. That's what a democracy is.

That isn't democracy so much as the Social Contract in Action.