Sexual Orientation & The Military

[Mt Id]

*sigh*

Ok arguing with a 15 year old obviously goes no where.

In this argument yes. Cause you wont change my opinion.

I'm not trying to!!!! I'm merely trying to stop you posting your opinion as fact. What is wrong with you?

[Bryn Shander]

Aren't we facing pretty serious recruiting shortages?

No. There were some missed recruiting goals for a few months a few years back, but there's no shortage of recruits. After the surge proved to be successful there was no issue with recruiting. Now that the economy is on the express train to the shitter they actually have so many recruits that standards are getting more restrictive again.

[Colonic Immigration]

*sigh*

Ok arguing with a 15 year old obviously goes no where.

In this argument yes. Cause you wont change my opinion.

I'm not trying to!!!! I'm merely trying to stop you posting your opinion as fact. What is wrong with you?

Many things.


But, atleast I'm not a bigot or a homophobe.

[KasDaya]

But we must ask ourselves, why was this ban upheld for so long? The primary reason that the military upheld its ban against gay service members was that it was necessary for the military to provide "cohesiveness." Society bent to accommodate homosexuality. The military, however, cannot bend if it is to effectively carry out its duties. The realities of military life include working closely while on duty, but the true intimacies "are to be traced to less bellicose surroundings-to the barracks, the orderly room, the mess hall. If indeed the military can lay claim to any sense of `organic unity,' it will be found in the intimacy of platoon and company life."

The military demands an extreme amount of cohesiveness, and this is very much reinforced in barracks life. You must sleep with, eat with, and share facilities with your fellow platoon members. Life in the barracks is extremely intimate. Men must share rooms together, and showers are public also. Having homosexuals be part of this structure violates this cohesiveness. Men and women are kept in separate barracks much for the same reasons. However, the true purpose behind barring gay service members is how the individuals who are part of the military feel about them.

Members of the military are more conservatively minded people, but, moreover, they are overwhelmingly opposed to having homosexuals among their ranks. To then force these individuals to serve with gays only undermines the morale of the military. And when morale is undermined, the effectiveness of the military drops as well. The leadership of the military has always been persistent in its position-"Up and down the chain of command, you'll find the military leadership favors the ban."

Ever since Baron Frederich von Steuben (a renowned Prussian military-mind and known homosexual) served as a Major General in the Continental Army, there have been homosexuals serving in the military. Even today there exists a Gay American Legion post in San Francisco. However, the general consensus is that allowing them in the service represents a rubber-stamping of their existence rather than a concerted effort to discourage it. Though the homosexual lobby often cites the fact that gays have always served in the military as a justification for lifting the ban, this sort of reasoning is wrong.

There are many other types of behavior that the military has been unable to completely eradicate, such as discharge and use of illegal substances. No one would ever deny that these things happen in the military. But the point is that if they were made legal, there would be more instances of them. To use the lack of perfect implementation as a pretext for legalization is equally absurd in the civilian world: Do we legalize criminal behavior on the grounds that "people have always done it"?

[Bluth Corporation]

Aren't we facing pretty serious recruiting shortages? Last I heard, the whole "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy was responsible for the expulsion of almost 12,000 soldiers from the military.

On the other hand, is it not reasonable to think that it's at least possible that considerably more than that number would not have joined up or re-enlisted if homosexuals were permitted to serve openly, given that there are still seriously negative attitudes towards homosexuality throughout much of the population (including, it seems, those segments most inclined to enlist)?

You and I may hope that that wouldn't be the case, but we can't ignore that it's a possibility that needs to be researched and considered.

[Mt Id]

Many things.


But, atleast I'm not a bigot or a homophobe.

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

[Absolvability]

Alexander the Great was gay. Young Spartan soldiers enjoyed intimate relations with their mentors. Are you going to tell me that Spartans were not good soldiers? Haha. Read a history book. Sparta also had a respect for women's rights well ahead of their time.

Military men are predominantly conservative, for the most part, because liberals tend to cut military funding. Lets not pretend it's all about gays.

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

Riiiight, cuz you're OBVIOUSLY mature.

[Colonic Immigration]

Many things.


But, atleast I'm not a bigot or a homophobe.

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

That's cos mine (on this subject) are right.

[Mt Id]

Riiiight, cuz you're OBVIOUSLY mature.

Do I know you? Because if I don't I don't think you have a right to say whether I'm mature or not.

That's cos mine (on this subject) are right.

Oh...my...God. Would you like a scepter with that throne you're putting yourself on?

[KasDaya]

Many things.


But, atleast I'm not a bigot or a homophobe.

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

That's cos mine (on this subject) are right.

Seriously. If you have nothing INTELLIGENT to offer to this debate, then please refrain from putting your uneeded opinions on here, and NO darling, not all opinions are right, some are simply nothing more than 'horseshit'.

Remember, we all have opinions, just like we all have 'arseholes' and like arseholes, the majority of opinions, STINK.

Simply because you feel that your opinion is RIGHT, DOES NOT Mean that it is.

You want to prove it's right, show PROOF, BACK YOUR STANCE UP. Dont just sit there and say "oh well, cos i say its right, it's right and you have to believe what i say and follow it exactly". WRONG.

[KasDaya]

Having homosexuals in the military is a matter of military effectiveness-not of the homosexuals' ability to perform military duties, but of the morale of the military as a whole. And, in the military, it is always the good of the whole which must be considered before the good of the individual. The ending of the Cold War and the re-definition of the military's mission does not mean that we should make the military less effective. If a policy in regards to the military does not improve its effectiveness, then it should not be implemented. But when the implementation means giving a chance to few who would like to serve out great nation, than it should be considered legal.

[Bluth Corporation]

Many things.


But, atleast I'm not a bigot or a homophobe.

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

He's just an intelligent kid who hasn't yet had the opportunity to develop critical thinking skills; he'll grow out of it. I was the same way when I was his age, and I'm hardly superannuated myself (late 20's).

To Colonic Immigration: No, I'm not saying you'll necessarily change your mind on this issue. I'm not saying "Kids think one way, grown-ups think another." There are plenty of instances where I still hold basically the same opinion I held when I was 15, just as there are plenty of instances where I have changed my mind. The important point is that I have learned to consider opposing arguments, recognize that there is often some (or quite a bit of) validity to them, and use that to develop a more complete view of the issue that isn't based on assumptions, ideological preconceptions, or talking points.

You'll also learn that it's a good idea to use proper English spelling, grammar, syntax, and mechanics in written debate, and that saying "I already know the right answer and there's nothing you can say that would educate me more or ever make me consider changing my mind" is not only very putting-off, but also woefully ignorant and a sign of intellectual immaturity.

[Bryn Shander]

That's cos mine (on this subject) are right.

Oh...my...God. Would you like a scepter with that throne you're putting yourself on?

Better make that a plunger to go with his throne.

[Colonic Immigration]

Riiiight, cuz you're OBVIOUSLY mature.

Do I know you? Because if I don't I don't think you have a right to say whether I'm mature or not.

What? So he'she's is not allowed to comment on your maturity and yet...

That's cos mine (on this subject) are right.

Oh...my...God. Would you like a scepter with that throne you're putting yourself on?

Please, peasant.

[Mt Id]

Seriously. If you have nothing INTELLIGENT to offer to this debate, then please refrain from putting your uneeded opinions on here, and NO darling, not all opinions are right, some are simply nothing more than 'horseshit'.

Remember, we all have opinions, just like we all have 'arseholes' and like arseholes, the majority of opinions, STINK.

Simply because you feel that your opinion is RIGHT, DOES NOT Mean that it is.

You want to prove it's right, show PROOF, BACK YOUR STANCE UP. Dont just sit there and say "oh well, cos i say its right, it's right and you have to believe what i say and follow it exactly". WRONG.

THANK YOU! Maybe he'll listen to you even if he won't listen to me.

[Bluth Corporation]

But when the implementation means giving a chance to few who would like to serve out great nation, than it should be considered legal.

What if, in so doing, you wound up putting off many many more people than you gained, thereby lowering the overall effectiveness of the military?

[Mt Id]

Riiiight, cuz you're OBVIOUSLY mature.

Do I know you? Because if I don't I don't think you have a right to say whether I'm mature or not.

What? So he'she's is not allowed to comment on your maturity and yet...

I never said a thing about ur maturity. I merely said opinions aren't fact like you were trying to proclaim. I never once said you were immature because I knew that I also have moments where I don't fully think out what I say and so could be called immature.

[Colonic Immigration]

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

That's cos mine (on this subject) are right.

Seriously. If you have nothing INTELLIGENT to offer to this debate,

I was under the impression that I already had, which is more than I can say for you.

then please refrain from putting your uneeded opinions on here, and NO darling, not all opinions are right, some are simply nothing more than 'horseshit'.

Darling? I'm open minded, but...

[Colonic Immigration]

Many things.


But, atleast I'm not a bigot or a homophobe.

You are,however, young, inexperienced, and overly opinionated. You also think way to highly of your own opinions and refuse to accept an opposite view. You don't have many friends, do you?

He's just an intelligent kid who hasn't yet had the opportunity to develop critical thinking skills; he'll grow out of it. I was the same way when I was his age, and I'm hardly superannuated myself (late 20's).

To Colonic Immigration: No, I'm not saying you'll necessarily change your mind on this issue. I'm not saying "Kids think one way, grown-ups think another." There are plenty of instances where I still hold basically the same opinion I held when I was 15, just as there are plenty of instances where I have changed my mind. The important point is that I have learned to consider opposing arguments, recognize that there is often some (or quite a bit of) validity to them, and use that to develop a more complete view of the issue that isn't based on assumptions, ideological preconceptions, or talking points.

You'll also learn that it's a good idea to use proper English spelling, grammar, syntax, and mechanics in written debate, and that saying "I already know the right answer and there's nothing you can say that would educate me more or ever make me consider changing my mind" is not only very putting-off, but also woefully ignorant and a sign of intellectual immaturity.

Um... thanks.


As for the spelling and whatnot- I'm dyslexic.

[Colonic Immigration]

Do I know you? Because if I don't I don't think you have a right to say whether I'm mature or not.

What? So he'she's is not allowed to comment on your maturity and yet...

I never said a thing about ur maturity. I merely said opinions aren't fact like you were trying to proclaim. I never once said you were immature because I knew that I also have moments where I don't fully think out what I say and so could be called immature.

I don't deny that I often don't think about what I say, but who has the time or the patience?

[KasDaya]

But when the implementation means giving a chance to few who would like to serve out great nation, than it should be considered legal.

What if, in so doing, you wound up putting off many many more people than you gained, thereby lowering the overall effectiveness of the military?

If you gander at the percentages of homosexuals in the united states and the percentages of non, they're pretty big, and I feel that, those who would serve and were able to serve would definitely make up for a lack of NON. I've known plenty of bi, gay, lesbians in the service, and they do their jobs just as well as any hetero.

But like i said, I have to think about this more so before stating a Definitely, concrete answer. For now, i'll supply facts and help deter petty redundant comments in this debate.

[Bryn Shander]

As for the spelling and whatnot- I'm dyslexic.

That's what all the lazy people that can't spell or use grammar say.

[Colonic Immigration]

As for the spelling and whatnot- I'm dyslexic.

That's what all the lazy people that can't spell or use grammar say.

I am, I used to be much worse, but I got ridiculed for it on Jolt so I put in more effort.

[Mt Id]

I don't deny that I often don't think about what I say, but who has the time or the patience?

Well, I suggest if you want to not be considered immature or idotic, I suggest you take the time and be a bit more patient. It'll pay off, trust me.

[Absolvability]

Do I know you? Because if I don't I don't think you have a right to say whether I'm mature or not.

No, you certainly don't know me. I know you pretty well though. I've seen your face enough times in bars. If YOU can't draw a parallel between your prejudice toward homosexuals and your abrupt and unjust decision that 15 year olds are stupid... well, there's little hope for you. But again, I knew that already.

The fact that you want to keep this debate personal rather than factual implies to me that you are INCREASINGLY aware that you have no real support for your arguement.

What if, in so doing, you wound up putting off many many more people than you gained, thereby lowering the overall effectiveness of the military?

What if my aunt had balls? Would she be my uncle?

Furthermore, what if we lost some white military men when blacks were allowed to join? Who the fuck cares?