Your stance on Police Brutality?

[Sibirsky]

He was walking away. The past does not matter. They had no right to push him.

The Arctic Seas

What if "in the past" he was hostile towards the officers then walked away just to get a brick, that was when police started "pushing" him and at this point som schmuck to flip on a camera and yell out "Police violence!!!"

It is possible. I hope that was the case. So at least the police actions are somewhat justified.

[Othyl]

If we had a private police force, their employees would be subject to laws just like anybody else. They would not be able to hide behind their government issued badge. The incentive would be to use as little power as possible.

Err wtf are you talking about -_-

If the people given the power of arrest were employees of a private company, then what's to stop them arbitrarily locking people up for purely economic reasons, with shitty prisons and all that? "You buy Pepsi, a night in the cells young miss" etc.

"Oh but we could sue them". Yeah but they're still the police, and if a private company is in charge, they could just make residents sign a waiver agreeing not to sue the police. And anyone who didn't sign the waiver wouldn't be covered, and hired thieves would just break into their house until they DID sign. That's what I'd do if I was running a private police company for maximum profit.

Protip: Most Western nations have a citizen's arrest law on the books.

Private corporations already do have the right to arrest and detain criminals. Malls and large department stores do this quite often. You can't just arrest people for no reason, we aren't handing law making power over to them, just law enforcement. And when's the last time a mall cop killed someone in the line of duty? Localized private law enforcement works just fine.

And yes, you could sue them. The court system is still in tact. All of your laws are the same! Stop acting like if private law enforcement was started, there'd be no law and we'd be run by the corporate police. You have the same laws, just people who care about success enforcing them. And there'd be competition between multiple police corporations. One of them wants to start coercing people into buying their service, there's another company next door looking for any chance for business and would investigate the matter, not to mention the extensive government oversight that would exist. Now if they all started doing that and made deals not to investigate one another, then there'd be a possibility for it to be considered a cartel, which most Western nations wouldn't hesitate to prosecute.

If you don't even know how a system is supposed to work, I don't think you can say with any certainty that it would work better than anything else.

The private sector is not better at everything. If it was, the US would pay less for healthcare than any other developed nation. It actually pays the most. Privatisation and deregualtion led to the brown outs that paralysed California a few years ago. No, the private sector is not automatically better at everything.

The electric industry is in no way free market. It is a government-founded monopoly. And because it's an unnatural monopoly, it won't work.

[Sibirsky]

Our healthcare costs more because of GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. Prior to government entering the healthcare area prices did not increase at the rates they increase today. Compliance costs are very high. We do not have a free market healthcare system. Look at electronics and computers. Despite inflation, they are getting better, and cheaper. THAT is the free market.

Brown outs in California were a result of fraud. Unfortunately things like that will happen.

Here is a link showing why the free market is not a good model for providing healthcare. The wikia rticle on the brownouts show clearly how privatization and subsequent deregualtion were causes of the brown outs. I'm not going to derail the topic further by continuing this argument.

To tie it back to the OP, do you know of any societies that use, or have used, private police forces effectively? How do they compare in terms of brutality?

I disagree. That link is very biased. Besides look at cosmetic surgery and lasik surgery. They have come DOWN is price.

[Sibirsky]

If we had a private police force, their employees would be subject to laws just like anybody else. They would not be able to hide behind their government issued badge. The incentive would be to use as little power as possible.

Err wtf are you talking about -_-

If the people given the power of arrest were employees of a private company, then what's to stop them arbitrarily locking people up for purely economic reasons, with shitty prisons and all that? "You buy Pepsi, a night in the cells young miss" etc.

"Oh but we could sue them". Yeah but they're still the police, and if a private company is in charge, they could just make residents sign a waiver agreeing not to sue the police. And anyone who didn't sign the waiver wouldn't be covered, and hired thieves would just break into their house until they DID sign. That's what I'd do if I was running a private police company for maximum profit.

Protip: Most Western nations have a citizen's arrest law on the books.

Private corporations already do have the right to arrest and detain criminals. Malls and large department stores do this quite often. You can't just arrest people for no reason, we aren't handing law making power over to them, just law enforcement. And when's the last time a mall cop killed someone in the line of duty? Localized private law enforcement works just fine.

And yes, you could sue them. The court system is still in tact. All of your laws are the same! Stop acting like if private law enforcement was started, there'd be no law and we'd be run by the corporate police. You have the same laws, just people who care about success enforcing them. And there'd be competition between multiple police corporations. One of them wants to start coercing people into buying their service, there's another company next door looking for any chance for business and would investigate the matter, not to mention the extensive government oversight that would exist. Now if they all started doing that and made deals not to investigate one another, then there'd be a possibility for it to be considered a cartel, which most Western nations wouldn't hesitate to prosecute.

If you don't even know how a system is supposed to work, I don't think you can say with any certainty that it would work better than anything else.

The private sector is not better at everything. If it was, the US would pay less for healthcare than any other developed nation. It actually pays the most. Privatisation and deregualtion led to the brown outs that paralysed California a few years ago. No, the private sector is not automatically better at everything.

The electric industry is in no way free market. It is a government-founded monopoly. And because it's an unnatural monopoly, it won't work.

THANK YOU! Yes malls, and I want to add banks and casinos who are ARMED. And would not hesitate to use their weapons if NEED BE.

[Gift-of-god]

Here is a link showing why the free market is not a good model for providing healthcare. The wiki article on the brownouts show clearly how privatization and subsequent deregualtion were causes of the brown outs. I'm not going to derail the topic further by continuing this argument.

To tie it back to the OP, do you know of any societies that use, or have used, private police forces effectively? How do they compare in terms of brutality?

I disagree. That link is very biased. Besides look at cosmetic surgery and lasik surgery. They have come DOWN is price.

So, I will assume that you have no examples of societies that have used private police forces effectively. Maybe the fact that it has never been shown to work means that it won't work.

[Sibirsky]

Here is a link showing why the free market is not a good model for providing healthcare. The wiki article on the brownouts show clearly how privatization and subsequent deregualtion were causes of the brown outs. I'm not going to derail the topic further by continuing this argument.

To tie it back to the OP, do you know of any societies that use, or have used, private police forces effectively? How do they compare in terms of brutality?

I disagree. That link is very biased. Besides look at cosmetic surgery and lasik surgery. They have come DOWN is price.

So, I will assume that you have no examples of societies that have used private police forces effectively. Maybe the fact that it has never been shown to work means that it won't work.

Malls, banks, casinos, various money carriers, gated communities and the like

[Louis Van Boxel Woolf]

The Police were doing their job. As it turned out Ian Tomlinson was drunk and drugged up at the time. Enquiries found his wife had kicked him out for violent behaviour and he had just taken part in one of the protests. The police were right to push him. It's not their fault he's such a pussio and died from one push. Ian: Police:

Show me your source for this! I do accept he was drunk, however, but, even worse a drunkman cannot defend himself!

[Sibirsky]

Here is a link showing why the free market is not a good model for providing healthcare. The wiki article on the brownouts show clearly how privatization and subsequent deregualtion were causes of the brown outs. I'm not going to derail the topic further by continuing this argument.

To tie it back to the OP, do you know of any societies that use, or have used, private police forces effectively? How do they compare in terms of brutality?

I disagree. That link is very biased. Besides look at cosmetic surgery and lasik surgery. They have come DOWN is price.

So, I will assume that you have no examples of societies that have used private police forces effectively. Maybe the fact that it has never been shown to work means that it won't work.

If it has never been tried, it doesn't mean that it won't work.

[The_pantless_hero]

Malls, banks, casinos, various money carriers, gated communities and the like

Security guards are not police.

Side note: And seriously, Evony ads need to be canceled. I was starting to wonder why there were porn ads here.

[Gift-of-god]

So, I will assume that you have no examples of societies that have used private police forces effectively. Maybe the fact that it has never been shown to work means that it won't work.

Malls, banks, casinos, various money carriers, gated communities and the like

A list of types of businesses and communities is not an example of a functioning society. Each of these institutions relies, one way or another, on the government police apparatus.

[Sibirsky]

Malls, banks, casinos, various money carriers, gated communities and the like

Security guards are not police.

Side note: And seriously, Evony ads need to be canceled. I was starting to wonder why there were porn ads here.

Banks and casino personnel are armed. Not much difference between armed security and police.

[Sibirsky]

So, I will assume that you have no examples of societies that have used private police forces effectively. Maybe the fact that it has never been shown to work means that it won't work.

Malls, banks, casinos, various money carriers, gated communities and the like

A list of types of businesses and communities is not an example of a functioning society. Each of these institutions relies, one way or another, on the government police apparatus.

That does not mean a private police force would not work. As long as there is no monopoly it would.

[Louis Van Boxel Woolf]

It is possible. I hope that was the case. So at least the police actions are somewhat justified.

No, he was not doing this, the IPCC's investigations verified this, also the officer who accidentally killed Ian admitted he was not given an order to kill him, he said "Neitheir me or any of my colleague officers had seen any blatant or serious offence of public disorder commited by Mr Tomlinson, who i express my deep regrets to him and his family."

[Othyl]

Private security relies on public police because they have limited jurisdiction. If a mall cop had proper relations with the court system and access to a decent legal team, they could prosecute them on their own jurisdiction, it's merely because the system isn't set up like that and civilians can't bring criminal charges. They need the public police and DA's office to press charges for criminal trials. It's not a limitation of the ability of private security, it's a limitation of the court system.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Scum. Those cops are scum. They will rot in hell for all eternity. Everyday, government assholes like themselves push me closer and closer to anarcho-capitalism.

If we had a private police force, their employees would be subject to laws just like anybody else. They would not be able to hide behind their government issued badge. The incentive would be to use as little power as possible. In these cases, these scumbags would go to jail for assault and murder. The employees would not be power hungry, authoritarian nut cases that tend to join the government police forces in today's society. It would be too expensive to hire assholes like that.

Ok I think we can safely say this guys hates the police.

Only brutal police.

Oh ok.

[Gift-of-god]

Malls, banks, casinos, various money carriers, gated communities and the like

Security guards are not police.

Side note: And seriously, Evony ads need to be canceled. I was starting to wonder why there were porn ads here.

Banks and casino personnel are armed. Not much difference between armed security and police.

Security personnel can not arrest, search or imprison individuals except as a temporary measure. They do not police their own community, but police those who visit the grounds of their employer. There are other differences as well.

[Rolling squid]

That does not mean a private police force would not work. As long as there is no monopoly it would.

Question: If the police are privatized, who makes sure they follow the laws?

[Sibirsky]

It is possible. I hope that was the case. So at least the police actions are somewhat justified.

No, he was not doing this, the IPCC's investigations verified this, also the officer who accidentally killed Ian admitted he was not given an order to kill him, he said "Neitheir me or any of my colleague officers had seen any blatant or serious offence of public disorder commited by Mr Tomlinson, who i express my deep regrets to him and his family."

That's sad. I would give the police officers the death penalty. Perhaps the punishment is too severe. Perhaps it would prevent future cases of excessive force.

[Saint Clair Island]

And yes, you could sue them. The court system is still in tact. All of your laws are the same! Stop acting like if private law enforcement was started, there'd be no law and we'd be run by the corporate police. You have the same laws, just people who care about success enforcing them. And there'd be competition between multiple police corporations. One of them wants to start coercing people into buying their service, there's another company next door looking for any chance for business and would investigate the matter, not to mention the extensive government oversight that would exist. Now if they all started doing that and made deals not to investigate one another, then there'd be a possibility for it to be considered a cartel, which most Western nations wouldn't hesitate to prosecute.

You invalidated your whole argument right there.

Yes, they could -- in fact, they're likely to -- form a police cartel which essentially controls law enforcement, will only investigate the most profitable crimes, will charge exorbitant rates from its clients, and will intimidate or outbid any newcomers attempting to gain a foothold into the market. Consider this cartel for a moment.

Obviously, since it's the only police force around, it will make a lot of money. It's providing a necessary service, after all, even if you don't agree with its business practices. How much of this money are they going to sink into donating to the political campaigns of politicians who, in return, promise to look the other way regarding their monopolistic, competition-stifling practices? A fair bit, if they have any desire to remain at the top. Who would even attempt to sue the cartel, knowing that they have access to better lawyers, can hold out in court for a lot longer, and can get a jury on their side by virtue of being the sole viable law enforcement agencies? History, if nothing else, has shown that cartels don't get prosecuted; if anything, they get rewarded.

You "free markets are self-regulating!!!1" people are pretty funny sometimes -- although, I'll admit, never more funny than when you go into threads about communism and claim that it's "a nice idea on paper but would never work in practice".

[Sibirsky]

That does not mean a private police force would not work. As long as there is no monopoly it would.

Question: If the police are privatized, who makes sure they follow the laws?

Courts and competing police forces.

[Saint Clair Island]

That does not mean a private police force would not work. As long as there is no monopoly it would.

Question: If the police are privatized, who makes sure they follow the laws?

Courts and competing police forces.

What gives courts the authority -- who would bring in the criminals, and where would they go if convicted? What if all the competing police forces have the same policies, or decide to make a deal with one another not to tread on one another's turf (let alone forming a cartel)?

[Sibirsky]

And yes, you could sue them. The court system is still in tact. All of your laws are the same! Stop acting like if private law enforcement was started, there'd be no law and we'd be run by the corporate police. You have the same laws, just people who care about success enforcing them. And there'd be competition between multiple police corporations. One of them wants to start coercing people into buying their service, there's another company next door looking for any chance for business and would investigate the matter, not to mention the extensive government oversight that would exist. Now if they all started doing that and made deals not to investigate one another, then there'd be a possibility for it to be considered a cartel, which most Western nations wouldn't hesitate to prosecute.

You invalidated your whole argument right there.

Yes, they could -- in fact, they're likely to -- form a police cartel which essentially controls law enforcement, will only investigate the most profitable crimes, will charge exorbitant rates from its clients, and will intimidate or outbid any newcomers attempting to gain a foothold into the market. Consider this cartel for a moment.

Obviously, since it's the only police force around, it will make a lot of money. It's providing a necessary service, after all, even if you don't agree with its business practices. How much of this money are they going to sink into donating to the political campaigns of politicians who, in return, promise to look the other way regarding their monopolistic, competition-stifling practices? A fair bit, if they have any desire to remain at the top. Who would even attempt to sue the cartel, knowing that they have access to better lawyers, can hold out in court for a lot longer, and can get a jury on their side by virtue of being the sole viable law enforcement agencies? History, if nothing else, has shown that cartels don't get prosecuted; if anything, they get rewarded.

You "free markets are self-regulating!!!1" people are pretty funny sometimes -- although, I'll admit, never more funny than when you go into threads about communism and claim that it's "a nice idea on paper but would never work in practice".

Well considering how I am AGAINST political contributions that wouldn't happen.

[Othyl]

Security personnel can arrest. It's called a citizen's arrest. Warrant access differs between areas, so I can't make generalizations there, but some courts will grant private investigators warrants. How the courts are set up requires government agencies to be involved in criminal suits. Being civilians, security personnel can't bring more than civil suits against individuals because of how the legal system is set up. If they had access to the DA's office or were allowed to prosecute themselves, there'd be no reason they couldn't do the same job as public police.

Competition is what would bind private police to their duties. They aren't above the law, so another police firm could come and arrest them for their crimes, whatever they may be.

Assuming that the political system is corrupt is not fair. Eventually, the people would grow to resent the police cartel, and look to smaller firms that crop up from time to time. They'd stop electing officials who support the cartels. Juries are comprised of the people being oppressed by the cartel, they wouldn't automagically win their support because they're cops, they'd lose it because they'd be oppressing the jury just as much as everyone else.

[Gift-of-god]

Well considering how I am AGAINST political contributions that wouldn't happen.

Would you make a law against it? How anarcho-capitalist of you.

How would you enforce the law? With the private police force that wants to make the contribution? What if they decided they would make more money by contributing?

[Sibirsky]

What gives courts the authority -- who would bring in the criminals, and where would they go if convicted? What if all the competing police forces have the same policies, or decide to make a deal with one another not to tread on one another's turf (let alone forming a cartel)?

The law gives the courts authority. Competing police forces would bring in the criminals. They would go to jail or prison if convicted. What's stopping any industry from forming cartels?