Your stance on Police Brutality?

[Sibirsky]

And I would hire a COMPETING agency to protect myself. So your protection agency would go out of business shortly thereafter as more and more people left you. As far as the waivers, there could be a law against such a thing. Problem solved. They are not exempt from lawsuits.

How do you ensure that the competing police force does not do the same thing?
How do you enforce such a law against waivers or lawsuits, or any law for that restricts the police forces that are covered by these laws?

I am not sure. Anarcho-capitalism is relatively new to me. I would go to a library and read a book on it, but all the books available are.... left leaning. I am trying to learn. Considering how the private sector is better at everything they do, I don't see why the police force would be any different. As long as there is no monopoly of course.

In the real world, before we go privatizing police forces, we should really start with Chrysler, GM, Citigroup, Amtrak, the post office...

[Mad hatters in jeans]

Then I'm sure you have evidence for such a claim.

Because the cops are not getting paid to hang out with rioters. They are paid to maintain peace and order. If they are unable to do that while others are exercising their democratic right to protest, then they are incapable of doing their jobs.

Okay well how about when those guys started smashing in the RBS.
here you go
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21245385/

Maintain peace and order? as in stop troublemakers causing damage to local businesses you mean? yeah that's a piece of cake that is, just a walk in the park really.
I don't give two monkeys about a democratic right to protest when certain people start smashing things up because they can't express themselves properly.
Got nothing against peaceful protests, because they can be fun, violent ones not so much.

[Risottia]

Cops should not be your everyday run of the mill neighbourhood friendly police, let the police be the police, if you get beat up you obviously done something to deserve it.

Police are meant to beat, lock up and shoot (prehaps not in that order) troublemakers and lawbreakers.

Too bad that in the case shown in the OP, the police killed an absolutely law-abiding guy who was minding his own businesses.

By the way, your ideal of police as sort of governmental street thugs is quite appalling - at least for someone who still thinks of something like rule-of-law, habeas corpus, etc.

[Lizardiar]

Police brutality is horrible, it's the use of a position to do something without serious punishment.

But we can't blame all police for what some of them do. I know cops who would lay down their lives to get you to safty, some of my friends are cops.

[Farnhamia]

Cops should not be your everyday run of the mill neighbourhood friendly police, let the police be the police, if you get beat up you obviously done something to deserve it.

Police are meant to beat, lock up and shoot (prehaps not in that order) troublemakers and lawbreakers.

Too bad that in the case shown in the OP, the police killed an absolutely law-abiding guy who was minding his own businesses.

By the way, your ideal of police as sort of governmental street thugs is quite appalling - at least for someone who still thinks of something like rule-of-law, habeas corpus, etc.

Perhaps this thread will explain Baycosa's attitude.

[Baycosa]

WHAT? Did you see Mr Tomlinson, he was walking away! In the 3rd vid the guy who now has brain damage, what was he doing?

Do what we do in Sweden, put the id numbers of the police on their vests or helmets so they can't take them off. Also put a video cam. on the police so they can see how the police was confronted. Just don't assume all is well because some bullshit amateaur video show a part of the incident, maybe the guy had tossed a brick or carried somthing resembling a knife or a gun.

[Gift-of-god]

I am not sure. Anarcho-capitalism is relatively new to me. I would go to a library and read a book on it, but all the books available are.... left leaning. I am trying to learn. Considering how the private sector is better at everything they do, I don't see why the police force would be any different. As long as there is no monopoly of course.

In the real world, before we go privatizing police forces, we should really start with Chrysler, GM, Citigroup, Amtrak, the post office...

If you don't even know how a system is supposed to work, I don't think you can say with any certainty that it would work better than anything else.

The private sector is not better at everything. If it was, the US would pay less for healthcare than any other developed nation. It actually pays the most. Privatisation and deregualtion led to the brown outs that paralysed California a few years ago. No, the private sector is not automatically better at everything.

[Risottia]

Looks like a protest got out of hand. The police only do what they are told over the radio. Just think about how stressfull that job would be in a big city.

Looks like in Warsaw a protest got out of hand. The Nazis only do what they are told over the radio. Just think about how stressful that job would be in a big city.

Call it a Godwin, but it irks me when I hear someone attempting a Nuremberg defense.
Also, if they can't cope up with the stress of being a police officer in a city, they can go dig rocks in a countryside mine, the crybabies.

[Risottia]

Perhaps this thread will explain Baycosa's attitude.

Thanks, but I already knew. As I said in that thread: nazi for hobby, nazi for real.

[Lakeside Park (Ancient)]

Physical punishment is wrong. Period. Wearing a nice outfit doesn't give you the right to beat on civilians. [/ignorance] But seriously. Even in the case that things are out of control, the job of an officer is to maintain order, not draw blood. I understand that this may happen on occasion, but many recent cases seem to display an extremely violent streak, previosuly thought unneccessary. What frightens me the most is to see how many people here shrug this off and find it acceptable.

But I will admit, to receive so intense a bludgeoning, you probably really had to screw up.

[Sibirsky]

Who wants to bet me, that those English cops do not serve more than 15 years if convicted? I am not sure about the sentencing guidelines in the UK, but had they been employees of a private agency, they would inevitably serve more time. And both the employee and employer would end up in civil court as well. The victims family would win tens of millions of pounds in damages. Exactly why such a thing would never happen with a private police force.

I read a comic book where the world worked like this. It had talking monkeys. Reality does not work this way.

Perhaps you have some evidence that shows that private police forces are more accountable than public ones, but I doubt it.

Private police forces would be subject to laws just like everybody else. If a cop breaks into a suspects home, shit goes haywire and he kills the suspect, eh, it was a suspect. Involuntary manslaughter or some shit like that would be his charge. He would get a year or so and come back to work. If I, as a private citizen did that I would get the death penalty for murder. An employee of a private police would get the same death penalty. AND the agency itself would get sued. And would owe the victims family millions of dollars. This ensures that the agencies would not hire power hungry authoritarian types. In fact, power hungry authoritarian types would not even apply. They would not be able to use power.

[Baycosa]

Too bad that in the case shown in the OP, the police killed an absolutely law-abiding guy who was minding his own businesses.

By the way, your ideal of police as sort of governmental street thugs is quite appalling - at least for someone who still thinks of something like rule-of-law, habeas corpus, etc.

Then get the facts right, was this person actually law abiding? Did he do something the police found as provocation or was he joining other protesters and got smacked because "he was one of them"?

The police are govermental thugs, they are employed to enforce law and order, "to serve and protect" is a byproduct of this, they are not meant to "serve and protect" rioters and other who break the law.

[The Arctic Seas]

The Police were doing their job. As it turned out Ian Tomlinson was drunk and drugged up at the time. Enquiries found his wife had kicked him out for violent behaviour and he had just taken part in one of the protests. The police were right to push him. It's not their fault he's such a pussio and died from one push. Ian: Police:

[Sibirsky]

I am not sure. Anarcho-capitalism is relatively new to me. I would go to a library and read a book on it, but all the books available are.... left leaning. I am trying to learn. Considering how the private sector is better at everything they do, I don't see why the police force would be any different. As long as there is no monopoly of course.

In the real world, before we go privatizing police forces, we should really start with Chrysler, GM, Citigroup, Amtrak, the post office...

If you don't even know how a system is supposed to work, I don't think you can say with any certainty that it would work better than anything else.

The private sector is not better at everything. If it was, the US would pay less for healthcare than any other developed nation. It actually pays the most. Privatisation and deregualtion led to the brown outs that paralysed California a few years ago. No, the private sector is not automatically better at everything.

Our healthcare costs more because of GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. Prior to government entering the healthcare area prices did not increase at the rates they increase today. Compliance costs are very high. We do not have a free market healthcare system. Look at electronics and computers. Despite inflation, they are getting better, and cheaper. THAT is the free market.

Brown outs in California were a result of fraud. Unfortunately things like that will happen.

[Baycosa]

Perhaps this thread will explain Baycosa's attitude.

What because I want the police to do their job?
Nice argument but police smack up everyone that does not abide the law.

[Gift-of-god]

Okay well how about when those guys started smashing in the RBS.
here you go
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21245385/

Maintain peace and order? as in stop troublemakers causing damage to local businesses you mean? yeah that's a piece of cake that is, just a walk in the park really.
I don't give two monkeys about a democratic right to protest when certain people start smashing things up because they can't express themselves properly.
Got nothing against peaceful protests, because they can be fun, violent ones not so much.

It's diffcult to comprehend what your point is when you introduce so much emotional hyperbole. Can you tone it down, please?

Your first link does not support your claim that people go to protesst just to cause trouble.

It appears that you are claiming that violence against protestors is fine when people are committing crimes against property. It also appears that ypou think police are unable to stop people from doing so without the use of violence. Personally, I feel that if police are unable to stop them from commiting the crime in the first place for whatever reason, including their own lack of skill or training, that does not automatically give them the right to bust some heads. I would require a little more, like a reasonable expectation that nonviolent methods would not work.

Of course, this would be unnecessary if the police were capable of doing their job in the first place.

I will assume that you agree with me that police are being unnecessarily brutal when attacking peaceful protestors, or others who are not taking part in such violence. Am I correct?

[Sibirsky]

The Police were doing their job. As it turned out Ian Tomlinson was drunk and drugged up at the time. Enquiries found his wife had kicked him out for violent behaviour and he had just taken part in one of the protests. The police were right to push him. It's not their fault he's such a pussio and died from one push. Ian: Police:

He was walking away. The past does not matter. They had no right to push him.

The Arctic Seas

[Gift-of-god]

Our healthcare costs more because of GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. Prior to government entering the healthcare area prices did not increase at the rates they increase today. Compliance costs are very high. We do not have a free market healthcare system. Look at electronics and computers. Despite inflation, they are getting better, and cheaper. THAT is the free market.

Brown outs in California were a result of fraud. Unfortunately things like that will happen.

Here is a link showing why the free market is not a good model for providing healthcare. The wikia rticle on the brownouts show clearly how privatization and subsequent deregualtion were causes of the brown outs. I'm not going to derail the topic further by continuing this argument.

To tie it back to the OP, do you know of any societies that use, or have used, private police forces effectively? How do they compare in terms of brutality?

[Baycosa]

He was walking away. The past does not matter. They had no right to push him.

The Arctic Seas

What if "in the past" he was hostile towards the officers then walked away just to get a brick, that was when police started "pushing" him and at this point som schmuck to flip on a camera and yell out "Police violence!!!"

[Eofaerwic]

THERE IS NO TRIAL OR INVESTIGATION! THAT IS WHAT I HATE!!!!!!!!!

Who would head such an investigation? Police? That seems ineffective.

I thought that usually investigations were headed by a prosecutor (which is not part of the police).

Independent Police Complaints Commission (a quango, not part of the police) - they did do an investigation however I personally don't think the results of it were effective enough.

Frankly what happened during the G8 protests do certainly indicate that the Metropolitan police need a shake up - especially when you consider it on top of the Charles Mendiez shooting a few years ago and I think too many of the investigations have been white-washed. But that's been done due to PR, to avoid looking bad - because no one wants to admit there is a problem and suffer the flak for it. The result of this is that the underlying issues don't get dealt with. The police are better now than they were in the 70s or 80s but unless something is done I can see them going back to their old attitudes and ways.

However, these are issues inherant in the police force, organisational issues to do with command and training NOT some big massive totalitarian conspiracy. There is a certainly rot there, but personally I feel that's because the people involved, from the bottom to the top, as so concerned with spin and looking good that they just paper over issues rather than nipping the problem in the bud.

[United Dependencies]

Cops will always get away with it unless God himself points his finger at the cop.

You could have a video of a cop about to arrest a guy, guy could trip over and the cop would shoot him 35 times claiming that as the suspect fell over he reach out for my hand and it was obvious he was trying to kill me. I shot him 12 times, reloaded, shot another 12 times then his leg twitched which is an obvious sign of him resisting arrest and shot him another 12 times.

Then the judge will say well even though the offcer shot the suspect 24 times, the suspects leg twitched while on the edge of death so the officer's life was still in danger.

Honestly if a cop unjustifiably shot me several times and doesn't kill me, after I recover I will kill him. Count on it.

Just like to point out that if the need to shoot someone arises then most police officers are trained to shoot more than once. That does not mean that shooting a large number of times is ok it just means that if an officer does shoot somebody more than a couple of times it is because of training.

Also I am against police brutality becuase it hurts the relationships between police officers and the people they protect and it stains the police's reputation. But brutality should be judged on a case by case basis.

[Saint Clair Island]

Who wants to bet me, that those English cops do not serve more than 15 years if convicted? I am not sure about the sentencing guidelines in the UK, but had they been employees of a private agency, they would inevitably serve more time. And both the employee and employer would end up in civil court as well. The victims family would win tens of millions of pounds in damages. Exactly why such a thing would never happen with a private police force.

I read a comic book where the world worked like this. It had talking monkeys. Reality does not work this way.

Perhaps you have some evidence that shows that private police forces are more accountable than public ones, but I doubt it.

Private police forces would be subject to laws just like everybody else.

So is the government police force. And since government police officers can get away with murder, quite literally, I see no reason why private police officers also won't be able to get away with murder. Things do not automatically become better just because they're privatized.

You can also sue the state for something the police force does. I can't remember exactly what that kind of lawsuit is called; Neo or TCT would know. And while you might be able to get something from that, precedent has shown that when individuals go up against private companies, the individuals almost always lose. Especially if the private company is providing police services.

I actually like Lord Vetinari's idea here -- creating a thieves' guild and similar organizations, wherein your house can be legally burglarized unless you pay a certain amount per month to the guild for their protection. And the guilds would, naturally, ensure that no unauthorized crime occurred, as it would cut into their profit margins. Doubt that would work outside of Ankh-Morpork though.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Scum. Those cops are scum. They will rot in hell for all eternity. Everyday, government assholes like themselves push me closer and closer to anarcho-capitalism.

If we had a private police force, their employees would be subject to laws just like anybody else. They would not be able to hide behind their government issued badge. The incentive would be to use as little power as possible. In these cases, these scumbags would go to jail for assault and murder. The employees would not be power hungry, authoritarian nut cases that tend to join the government police forces in today's society. It would be too expensive to hire assholes like that.

Ok I think we can safely say this guys hates the police.

[Getn]

Police brutality is not acceptable, but it also isn't that common.

Finally, a middle man. I like this guy

[Sibirsky]

Scum. Those cops are scum. They will rot in hell for all eternity. Everyday, government assholes like themselves push me closer and closer to anarcho-capitalism.

If we had a private police force, their employees would be subject to laws just like anybody else. They would not be able to hide behind their government issued badge. The incentive would be to use as little power as possible. In these cases, these scumbags would go to jail for assault and murder. The employees would not be power hungry, authoritarian nut cases that tend to join the government police forces in today's society. It would be too expensive to hire assholes like that.

Ok I think we can safely say this guys hates the police.

Only brutal police.