Is Israel an Attacker or a defender?

[New new nebraska]

Unless any of us have actually lived in a war zone we can't be in the Isreali mindset. They are under constant threat. The blockade is a reasonable reaction to this. Inspecting things before thy go into Gaza is a perfectly erasable reaction to this. The bigger hurdle is getting the Palestinians to accept the fact the isreal exists, has a right to exist, and should and will countinue to exist.
If the people won't accept this there will be hostility towards Isreal, Isreali retaliation and there will never be any peace. The Palestians elected a terrorist orginization who won't accept Usreal so there can't be any progress. The Palestinians have been offered a state numerous times and denied it numerous times. In those ways they've brought a lot of the hrdship on themselves. Isreal is usually on the defensive. Isrealndoesn't shoot rockets into markets in Gaza it always happens the other ways. It's somewhat akin to Lincoln suspending habeous corpus during the Civil War. Isreali is in a constant state of unrest. Thier methods aren't totally excusable, but thier reasons are understandable.the way they go about security isn't always right but they are interested in security, no inflicting pain on harmless
Civilians.

[Global Conspiracies]

Thier methods aren't totally excusable, but thier reasons are understandable.the way they go about security isn't always right but they are interested in security, no inflicting pain on harmless
Civilians.

Are you aware of the occupation?

Here's a recent map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank:



The process of constructing these settlements has been going on virtually without pause for decades. What understandable reason exists for this method?

[Mikoyan-Guryevich]

Thier methods aren't totally excusable, but thier reasons are understandable.the way they go about security isn't always right but they are interested in security, no inflicting pain on harmless
Civilians.

Are you aware of the occupation?

Here's a recent map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank:

-snip-
The process of constructing these settlements has been going on virtually without pause for decades. What understandable reason exists for this method?

The West Bank IS a part of Israel. Its their own damn country therefore they can do whatever they please with it. Unfortunately, the Arab world dictated in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and even recently that Jews and Muslims can't co-exist peacefully, so who can blame Israel for keeping the two parties apart?

[Geniasis]

The West Bank IS a part of Israel. Its their own damn country therefore they can do whatever they please with it. Unfortunately, the Arab world dictated in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and even recently that Jews and Muslims can't co-exist peacefully, so who can blame Israel for keeping the two parties apart?

No, actually. The West Bank is part of the Palestinian Territories, though it does share a border with Israel.

[Dododecapod]

They move or they die. Most will probably end up citizens of Jordan or Egypt - they're the only Arab states that treat them halfway decently.

Yeah, that's reasonable. Why are surprised about them being pissed off, again?

I don't know. I would be pissed as hell if it was happening to me.

I don't have any problem with Palestinian anger at the settlements, or even attacking them. Or the Israeli army, come to that. I just can't support a group that deliberately targets the civilians in Israeli territory, and Palestinian forces continuously do that, without regard for how the retaliation is going to hurt their own people.

[Nodinia]

Unless any of us have actually lived in a war zone we can't be in the Isreali mindset. They are under constant threat. The blockade is a reasonable reaction to this. Inspecting things before thy go into Gaza is a perfectly erasable reaction to this. The bigger hurdle is getting the (........) are interested in security, no inflicting pain on harmless
Civilians.

Why then the continued occupation and settlement into/of the West Bank and Arab east Jerusalem?

The West Bank IS a part of Israel. .

No, nor is it recognised as such by even Israeli law.

[Geniasis]

I don't know. I would be pissed as hell if it was happening to me.

I don't have any problem with Palestinian anger at the settlements, or even attacking them. Or the Israeli army, come to that. I just can't support a group that deliberately targets the civilians in Israeli territory, and Palestinian forces continuously do that, without regard for how the retaliation is going to hurt their own people.

I think it's been established that if you're trying to paint either side as being blameless, then you're being willfully ignorant of their actions. It's weird like that. Both sides are completely sympathetic, and both sides are complete assholes.

[Dododecapod]

I don't know. I would be pissed as hell if it was happening to me.

I don't have any problem with Palestinian anger at the settlements, or even attacking them. Or the Israeli army, come to that. I just can't support a group that deliberately targets the civilians in Israeli territory, and Palestinian forces continuously do that, without regard for how the retaliation is going to hurt their own people.

I think it's been established that if you're trying to paint either side as being blameless, then you're being willfully ignorant of their actions. It's weird like that. Both sides are completely sympathetic, and both sides are complete assholes.

Good way to put it.

[Occupied Deutschland]

They don't?

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

The US and Israel both use laser-guided smart munitions that land within a meter of where they are aimed at. War Crimes trials would entail a deliberate targeting of civilian personell, as when rockets are fired from the Gaza strip into Israeli territory. Or when Saddam launched mustard-gas canisters into Kuwaiti cities.

[Crabulonia]

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

The US and Israel both use laser-guided smart munitions that land within a meter of where they are aimed at. War Crimes trials would entail a deliberate targeting of civilian personell, as when rockets are fired from the Gaza strip into Israeli territory. Or when Saddam launched mustard-gas canisters into Kuwaiti cities.

So everybody, is this the conclusion that Israel is neither attacker nor defender but could at least fire it's bombs at clearer targets? Whether they are in civilian targets or not, Israel surely - as one of the best military nations in the world - could put in the time and effort to take out any threats to peace without blowing up entire neighbourhoods.

[Kormanthor]

Defender of course

[Crabulonia]

Defender of course

Bit of a major defense isn't it?

[Demigueris]

Let's be real here.

Israel stole the land. It used to be lived on by Palestinians, Jewish settlers moved in, took over and shot those who tried to eject them.

The founding of Israel was a gianormous clusterfuck and probably shouldn't have gone ahead at all... but it's 60 years on and millions of Israeli's have grown up in that place. And let's face it, Jewish people have had a shitty ride the past 2000 years. So Israel, you made the club, you're in. No one's going to let you go the way of the Dodo and if anyone ever thinks about starting some Hitler shit again, we'll smack them down hard. I mean really, even the Islamic nations of the world no longer seriously dispute your right to exist. Sure Iran talks shit, but what are they gonna do? Seriously, even if they develop a nuclear weapon and give it to terrorists in order to blow up Tel Aviv or something it'll be the last thing they ever do: you, or the US - and possibly every other nuclear power on earth - will turn Iran into a glass parking lot and no one will lift a finger to stop them. It's not going to happen.

Honestly Israel, you're a great country and all, but it's time we told you the truth: we - the rest of the world - are tired of putting up with your bullshit.

But let's also face this: Israel as a state is a giant dick where it comes to it's treatment of Palestinians. Yes it has a right to defend itself, but sooner or later it's going to have to come to terms with the fact that they stole pretty much all that land right out from under Palestinian feet - and shot more than a few people in the process. Consequently there are some legitimately pissed off Palestinians.

8 million Jews surrounded by 300 million Muslims and you want to go the violent confrontation of force method? Are you fucking serious? You think the US is going to have your back forever. Yeah you surprised everyone 40 years ago but guess what, it's not going to last forever. You still going to have military superiority in 20 years? 50 years? 500 years? You think those people you keep shitting on are going to go away?

And yeah, the Palestinians can be a sack of dicks themselves, but in the grand scheme of things, they're a useless sack of dicks that can't seriously harm Israel militarily and everyone knows it. Plus they've got a legitimate reason for being a bunch of dicks, millions of them have been living in refugee camps for 60 years. They fire rockets, and sure, you've got the right to fire back but take a look around you: it doesn't mean it's the smart move.

Israel's digging itself a hole, and sooner or later they're going to have to realize it's time to stop and start making concessions. The terms are only going to get worse for them as time wears on.

[Sun Aut Ex]

Let's be real here.

Israel stole the land. It used to be lived on by Palestinians, Jewish settlers moved in, took over and shot those who tried to eject them.

Actually, the UK owned that land, allowed Israel to be created in their territory, and said "Come here Jews, move on in!".

[Basuco Bears]

They don't?

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

Hello it's the U.S. they have a seat on the council in the UN they can do whatever they want

[Arumdaum]

Let's be real here.

Israel stole the land. It used to be lived on by Palestinians, Jewish settlers moved in, took over and shot those who tried to eject them.

Actually, the UK owned that land, allowed Israel to be created in their territory, and said "Come here Jews, move on in!".

And how did the UK take Palestine again?

[Varners singing]

As has been pointed out, they are surrounded by nations that, at various points, have attacked them/advocated their destruction. It's madness to expect them to not defend themselves against force, yet it's regrettable many innocent civilians, on both sides, have died in the cross-fire. On an unrelated note, I'm pleaseantly surprised Goddwin's Law hasn't come into play, as this a sensitive topic, and Hitler is tangentially relevant (i.e. early Israelis were Holocaust survivors)

It just did right then.....

[Risottia]

Actually, the UK owned that land, allowed Israel to be created in their territory, and said "Come here Jews, move on in!".

And how did the UK take Palestine again?

Took it from the Turks who took it from the Eastern Roman Empire who took it from the Roman Empire who took it from Jews who took it from Canaanites and Philistines who took it from the Mediterraneans who took it from ... (etc) ... who took it from Ug-Nog-Ug who took it from the sheep and the goats.

[Islamic Hazarastan]

Defender, most certainly.

[Crabulonia]

Defender, most certainly.

Usually I'd say one event is a bit difficult to extrapolate a nations entire history but I've known you to source many other incidents so seems about right.