Is Israel an Attacker or a defender?

[Federalist Territories]

I believe that Israel defends itself with no hesitation as they should. It has been a fact in many wars, World War II, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq both times, Afghanistan, Germany, and of course Palestine that governments will place important military structures in heavy civilian populated locations for that very reason. In hopes that any attacking forces will not strike those locations in some compassionate attempt to minimize collateral damage. History has shown that it does not seem to work. When the Nazi's placed their military production facilities in heavy civilian zones like Frankfurt, to hell with it, we firebombed the whole city. People seem to forget, whether you are fighting as an aggressor or aggressively fighting as a defender, one principle remains the same. Self preservation and self interest, enemy civilians are always second priority to defending your own people or minimizing casualties to your own forces, does not matter which nation is doing the shooting or whose dying. Over the years we have developed a rather pathetic form of warfare, some sort of watered down version that America's armies dont seem to follow. We failed at Vietnam because of this, we continue to struggle in Iraq because of this and in Afghanistan. It seems that nation building is our goal now, not victory for ourselves, we care more for the enemies people then our own troops and our troops will continue to die for this. If i had my way in 2004 when Fallujah Iraq was a terrorist hot spot as it was back then, I would of turned the whole city into a massive parking lot for a new Wal-mart, there's my nation building strategy. War is not about the numbers, it's about will, this Israeli's still understand this and they will do whatever it takes to break the will of the enemy whoever the enemy may be. America used to be that way and we won wars that way.

[Innsmothe]

I believe that Israel defends itself with no hesitation as they should. It has been a fact in many wars, World War II, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq both times, Afghanistan, Germany, and of course Palestine that governments will place important military structures in heavy civilian populated locations for that very reason. In hopes that any attacking forces will not strike those locations in some compassionate attempt to minimize collateral damage. History has shown that it does not seem to work. When the Nazi's placed their military production facilities in heavy civilian zones like Frankfurt, to hell with it, we firebombed the whole city. People seem to forget, whether you are fighting as an aggressor or aggressively fighting as a defender, one principle remains the same. Self preservation and self interest, enemy civilians are always second priority to defending your own people or minimizing casualties to your own forces, does not matter which nation is doing the shooting or whose dying. Over the years we have developed a rather pathetic form of warfare, some sort of watered down version that America's armies dont seem to follow. We failed at Vietnam because of this, we continue to struggle in Iraq because of this and in Afghanistan. It seems that nation building is our goal now, not victory for ourselves, we care more for the enemies people then our own troops and our troops will continue to die for this. If i had my way in 2004 when Fallujah Iraq was a terrorist hot spot as it was back then, I would of turned the whole city into a massive parking lot for a new Wal-mart, there's my nation building strategy. War is not about the numbers, it's about will, this Israeli's still understand this and they will do whatever it takes to break the will of the enemy whoever the enemy may be. America used to be that way and we won wars that way.

Tyrannical warfare only give your enemy the means to defeat you in the long run.
Justification.

[Laerod]

If i had my way in 2004 when Fallujah Iraq was a terrorist hot spot as it was back then, I would of turned the whole city into a massive parking lot for a new Wal-mart, there's my nation building strategy. War is not about the numbers, it's about will, this Israeli's still understand this and they will do whatever it takes to break the will of the enemy whoever the enemy may be. America used to be that way and we won wars that way.

Yes. Just remember the valiant carpet bombing in Vietnam that secured us glorious and everlasting victory!

[Geniasis]

If i had my way in 2004 when Fallujah Iraq was a terrorist hot spot as it was back then, I would of turned the whole city into a massive parking lot for a new Wal-mart, there's my nation building strategy. War is not about the numbers, it's about will, this Israeli's still understand this and they will do whatever it takes to break the will of the enemy whoever the enemy may be. America used to be that way and we won wars that way.

Yes. Just remember the valiant carpet bombing in Vietnam that secured us glorious and everlasting victory!

Federalist Territories is the hero Israel deserves. But not the one it needs right now.

[Vragovia]

Not until the kike dogs are there. I apologize for the lack of moderation and political correctness, but that's just BS.

The unconvincing apology doesn't get you out of being *** warned for trolling ***. This being only your fourth post did at least save you from worse. Check the Rulses if you're planning to stay.

Ok, sorry. Suppose I should've guessed that being that honest will do no good for anyone. And my original intention wasn't anywhere near trolling. I wanted to see if anyone could offer any reasons for the jewish occupation other than the few very unconvincing ones I've heard so far. It's just I feel VERY strongly about the palestinian misfortune and in the future I'll keep my antisemitic thoughts to myself.

Now, since there weren't many answers to my question, let's try this in a different way:

Can anyone give a reason for the occupation of Palestine, aside from the unhistorical, biblical one we've all heard?

PS: again, I'm sorry for not having enough self control earlier and offending some of you. It was a totally pointless waste of forum space.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Trolling: Posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). While Trolls often make these posts strictly in an attempt to provoke negative comment, it is still trolling even if you actually hold those beliefs. Intent is difficult to prove over the internet, so mods will work under their best assumptions.

"My best assumption" is that I should give you a day off to read through that thread. But, since you're also new, I'll cut it back to *** warned for trolling ***. We have rules. Read them.

I guess I should be grateful that you skipped over my "Lizardpeople" comment.

And drawing attention to it wasn't very smart. You're just lucky I can smell satire a mile away. You might want to be more careful with it in the future.

[Hornopolis]

Israel will always be the defender.

[Anthil]

Zionism is inherently aggressive.

[Dododecapod]

Israel will always be the defender.

Which is just as silly as saying Israel is always the attacker. Israel is doing some very nasty things, most certainly including the slow stealing of land, mass culpability and group punishments, and being far too cavalier regarding collateral damage when they hit terrorist units.

So, one might reasonably ask, why do I generally support Israel? Because nasty or otherwise, the Isaraelis are not the genocidal maniacs here; HAMAS and Hezbollah are. That, and I can't help noticing that the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are STILL being better treated than those in Lebanon or Saudi Arabia are - which says to me that the Arab "cause" is actually just so much bullshit.

[Laerod]

And drawing attention to it wasn't very smart. You're just lucky I can smell satire a mile away. You might want to be more careful with it in the future.

To be fair, there was a "seriously" added afterwards that made the hyperbole obvious even to people with sarcasm colds...

[Nodinia]

National safety. The places it's expanded too are hotbeds for groups that wish it's destruction. True, they shouldn't be do the colonial thing, but once again, we're applying Western standards to a Mid East nation. The morals aren't exactly going to match up.

You were talking about nations, now its "groups that wish for its destrtuction"?

You might be suprised by this, but those put out by this colonial enterprise will not be made good friends and cuddle-buddies by the experience.

They have never attacked prior to an attack on themselves.

Israel will always be the defender.
.

The settlements and occupation are an act of aggression thats been ongoing since 1967.

[Satirius]

Israel is an attacker obviously, why else would it have Haste, Trample, and Cluster Munitions

Any good offensive Magic deck must have four of them

[Federalist Territories]

I believe that Israel defends itself with no hesitation as they should. It has been a fact in many wars, World War II, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq both times, Afghanistan, Germany, and of course Palestine that governments will place important military structures in heavy civilian populated locations for that very reason. In hopes that any attacking forces will not strike those locations in some compassionate attempt to minimize collateral damage. History has shown that it does not seem to work. When the Nazi's placed their military production facilities in heavy civilian zones like Frankfurt, to hell with it, we firebombed the whole city. People seem to forget, whether you are fighting as an aggressor or aggressively fighting as a defender, one principle remains the same. Self preservation and self interest, enemy civilians are always second priority to defending your own people or minimizing casualties to your own forces, does not matter which nation is doing the shooting or whose dying. Over the years we have developed a rather pathetic form of warfare, some sort of watered down version that America's armies dont seem to follow. We failed at Vietnam because of this, we continue to struggle in Iraq because of this and in Afghanistan. It seems that nation building is our goal now, not victory for ourselves, we care more for the enemies people then our own troops and our troops will continue to die for this. If i had my way in 2004 when Fallujah Iraq was a terrorist hot spot as it was back then, I would of turned the whole city into a massive parking lot for a new Wal-mart, there's my nation building strategy. War is not about the numbers, it's about will, this Israeli's still understand this and they will do whatever it takes to break the will of the enemy whoever the enemy may be. America used to be that way and we won wars that way.

Tyrannical warfare only give your enemy the means to defeat you in the long run.
Justification.

Tyrannical warfare? Is there another kind? Is there a polite warfare? You go all in or you go home unless your home is the battlefield in which case you sit in your home and wait to die.

[Federalist Territories]

If i had my way in 2004 when Fallujah Iraq was a terrorist hot spot as it was back then, I would of turned the whole city into a massive parking lot for a new Wal-mart, there's my nation building strategy. War is not about the numbers, it's about will, this Israeli's still understand this and they will do whatever it takes to break the will of the enemy whoever the enemy may be. America used to be that way and we won wars that way.

Yes. Just remember the valiant carpet bombing in Vietnam that secured us glorious and everlasting victory!

Just bombing alone solves nothing, the primary motive of Vietnam was policing the country, not winning a war. We could of dropped a million bombs but it would of amounted to nothing, Vietnam is something we should of never have gotten into. It was a politically philosophical war, a civil war at that in which we had no business being involved in other then America was paranoid of communism. Bombing is irrelevant without a clear goal and the motivation to achieve it. We nuked Japan in WWII twice, why? Because if we didnt we'd have to invade each island of Japan one by one which would of amounted to casualties six times greater then that of D-Day against an utterly fearless enemy. That was the measure of our resolve and Japan's will was broken. We burned half the jungle, the Vietcong are not going to surrender to save the wildlife population.

[Belfras]

Defender. Terrorists are attacking it from all over. Look at this rocket launching truck:

Pimp my ride strikes again!

But yeah, Israel is definately a reciever.. Wait, wrong topic. Yeah, they defend.. Even if they do like pissing off the Islamic states that are far larger then them and making the occasional political outrage for sh*t and giggles.

[Islamic Hazarastan]

Israel defends itself by bombing schools filled with terrorist children, bombing hospitals filled with terrorist sick people, shooting terrorist farmers growing WMDs, shooting terrorist journalists spreading lies and dissent... oh, and when Palestinians fight back, they aren't defending. They're just being terrorists.

[United Gackle]

Israel is a nobel defender, and they will remain that way till US, Russia, GB, France, and the rest of the western powers grow a backbone and help Israel out.

[Matanceros]

Surely if Israel was actively attempting the " war of genocide" that some people claim it is, then it could have wiped out the population of Palestine years ago? What it is doing now is not cutting back the population of Palestinians, but is inducing international outrage. A nation with (presumably) full WMD capability would be amply capable of ensuring genocide.
And to name an entire nation as a aggressor would be wrong, incorrect and misleading. Governments and policies change. When is taking the "military initiative " an "unprovoked action" and when are "purely defensive strategies" actually being a sitting duck?
Maybe a number of threads looking at the current government and military actions of Israel is much more effective and useful. Just a thought...

[United Gackle]

Surely if Israel was actively attempting the " war of genocide" that some people claim it is, then it could have wiped out the population of Palestine years ago? What it is doing now is not cutting back the population of Palestinians, but is inducing international outrage. A nation with (presumably) full WMD capability would be amply capable of ensuring genocide.
And to name an entire nation as a aggressor would be wrong, incorrect and misleading. Governments and policies change. When is taking the "military initiative " an "unprovoked action" and when are "purely defensive strategies" actually being a sitting duck?
Maybe a number of threads looking at the current government and military actions of Israel is much more effective and useful. Just a thought...

Ya i agree with you, Israel could of killed all of Palestine off but they are the good guys so they won't.

[Taffy 3]

Some of the statements in this thread are laughable. I've learned that I won't get anyone to change their minds and no one will get me to change mine. Debating this further is futile as pretty much everyone on this issue is firm. It's as pointless as debating abortion or gay marriage. No one will change their minds.

I'm a PROUD Zionist. some of the less informed NS'ers can demonize Zionism all they want and try to put a bad label on the ideology, but I'm DAMN Proud to be one and will always be a Zionist. Israel's enemies can keep on trying to defeat her, but they will keep on getting their asses kicked. We Jews can be patient. We waited almost 2,000 years to get our land back so we can wait a few more generations until the Arabs learn they can't defeat us. I'm just proud to be a Zionist and proud that Jews can defend themselves today because 3 generations ago my great-grandparents lived in a world where they had to spend much of their childhood hiding under a bed because of the Czar's pogroms.

[Lithuneria]

I am not a zionist but I support Israel's actions.

On 9/11, 2,977 people died. It was an outrageous agressive act. Would the Americans simply say 'well, we have 307,006,550 more people to get through; this act does not merit a response'? Of course not. For good or bad, 864,531 Iraqis and 8,813 Afghans have died. Is that a proportional response? No. Is it justifies? Yes (to an extent) since it saves the lives of US citizens which is its 'Raison d'etre' of the US government. Reports of 'genocide' in palistine are pure b*llocks. Israel doesn't need to kill palistinans nor does it want to so why would they do it?

Basically it comes down to this: if the glove was on the other hand, how is a government supposed to react to an agressor (even if few people are killed)?

It does seem that being anti-israeli is a way for many people (not all) to justify their anti-semitism...

Just my 2p worth...

[Geniasis]

I am not a zionist but I support Israel's actions.

On 9/11, 2,977 people died. It was an outrageous agressive act. Would the Americans simply say 'well, we have 307,006,550 more people to get through; this act does not merit a response'? Of course not. For good or bad, 864,531 Iraqis and 8,813 Afghans have died. Is that a proportional response? No. Is it justifies? Yes (to an extent) since it saves the lives of US citizens which is its 'Raison d'etre' of the US government. Reports of 'genocide' in palistine are pure b*llocks. Israel doesn't need to kill palistinans nor does it want to so why would they do it?

Basically it comes down to this: if the glove was on the other hand, how is a government supposed to react to an agressor (even if few people are killed)?

It does seem that being anti-israeli is a way for many people (not all) to justify their anti-semitism...

Just my 2p worth...

Wait, so because of 9/11 the US should be able to use White Phosphorous on Pakistan and Afghanistan? Cool.

[Nodinia]

................... I'm just proud to be a Zionist and proud that Jews can defend themselves today because 3 generations ago my great-grandparents lived in a world where they had to spend much of their childhood hiding under a bed because of the Czar's pogroms.

...and now some their descendants are inflicting the same suffering on others in their name. Wouldn't they be proud.

[Nodinia]

I am not a zionist but I support Israel's actions.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,..

All their actions? So you support colonialism.....?

[Innsmothe]

I am not a zionist but I support Israel's actions.

On 9/11, 2,977 people died. It was an outrageous agressive act. Would the Americans simply say 'well, we have 307,006,550 more people to get through; this act does not merit a response'? Of course not. For good or bad, 864,531 Iraqis and 8,813 Afghans have died. Is that a proportional response? No. Is it justifies? Yes (to an extent) since it saves the lives of US citizens which is its 'Raison d'etre' of the US government. Reports of 'genocide' in palistine are pure b*llocks. Israel doesn't need to kill palistinans nor does it want to so why would they do it?

Basically it comes down to this: if the glove was on the other hand, how is a government supposed to react to an agressor (even if few people are killed)?

It does seem that being anti-israeli is a way for many people (not all) to justify their anti-semitism...

Just my 2p worth...

Being Semitic I call bullshit, most people on this forum are good people and are not racists.
Crying 'antisemitism' in the face of justified criticism just makes the Israelis position weaker.