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World Government for Earth

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Never wrong People
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World Government for Earth

Postby Never wrong People » Thu May 14, 2009 6:52 pm

World Government - goals and why it would be great. :D

All laws are more powerful the local laws, a good way of thinking of it is like the relationship of US federal government to state governments. :D
Power of the purse, levy taxes and spend money
Relegation will balance the play field to not undermine the economy - to prevent bubbles in the economy and cause real growth
No tariffs - free trade for all
One currency - so simple
No social or moral or religion issues
World police force enforces all laws including human rights, has power to go anywhere to enforce laws about rights and private protection are still around (right to trial and other protections)
Crime can be hunted everywhere - can not run from the cops :shock: to criminals
Global warning action can be taken if wanted
State sovereignty does not exist
Last edited by Never wrong People on Sun May 17, 2009 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Vojvodina-Nihon
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Vojvodina-Nihon » Thu May 14, 2009 7:39 pm

Wrong forum. Find a mod to move it to General.

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Bluth Corporation
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Bluth Corporation » Thu May 14, 2009 9:02 pm

Never wrong People wrote:All laws are more powerful the local laws

In the past 150 years, governments have become more repressive and more destructive than ever before--and you want to make government even powerful, and put a single government in control of the entire world with no practically effective checks on its power to wreak havoc on the sanctity of individual sovereignty?

Relegation will balance the play field to not undermine the economy - to prevent bubbles in the economy and cause real growth

By and large, economy-specific regulation (as opposed to laws against things such as murder, theft, vandalism, fraud, etc. which apply to businesses and individuals alike) destabilizes the economy and inhibits growth because it makes any venture riskier, and forcing businesses to jump through bureaucratic hoops that don't actually contribute to production is obviously more inefficient than not forcing it.

No tariffs - free trade for all

Actually a valid argument.

One currency - so simple

Reasonable, though

No social or moral or religion issues

OK, this is the biggest fallacy of them all. World government would lead to Balkanization of the whole world.

People don't fight other people because they're from other countries. People fight other people because they don't like each other, regardless of how sane those reasons might be. World government would be Yugoslavia writ large. Putting Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Albanians, Slovenes, and others under a single government didn't cause them to magically stop fighting each other; world government would be the same thing on a global scale.

Frankly, ethnic identity is bunk. There is only the individual. But there are enough people who don't realize this to create massive problems for the rest of us if they're forced to all live together under one single, worldwide, ultra-generic state. It'd be disastrous.

World police force enforces all laws including human rights, has power to go anywhere to enforce laws civil rights and private protection are still around (right to trial and other protections)

Crime can be hunted everywhere - can not run from the cops :shock:


I fail to see how a world where even the theoretical possibility of escaping an unjust and oppressive and illegitimate law by leaving the country and going somewhere where that law does not exist would be better than a world where that possibility does exist.

Global warning action can be taken if wanted

Governments are not the best mechanism to deal with this problem. Climate change of any sort is only bad to the extent that it adversely affects human activity, and no centralized monolithic entity can possibly ever hope to have the information-aggregation and information-processing capacity: first, to determine whether or not a given event's net effect on human activity is positive or negative; second, if it is negative to discover just how negative; and third, how to counter it without making the negative effect on human activity greater than it already is.

State sovereignty does not exist :o

How is a world government not a state? The only legitimate kind of sovereignty is individual sovereignty, anyway, and I fail to see how world government would be an improvement on this.
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Parthenon
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Parthenon » Thu May 14, 2009 10:02 pm

I am going to be completely honest, this went from a bad thread to a terrible thread when I noticed mention of global warming....

Every empire in history has failed for two reasons, efficiency and identity. Governing 6 billion people is impossible if there is no common identity and a lack of efficiency in administration.
Last edited by Parthenon on Thu May 14, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bavin
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Bavin » Thu May 14, 2009 10:14 pm

Parthenon said
Governing 6 billion people is impossible if there is no common identity and a lack of efficiency in administration.

There is a common identity: humanity, and the greater good
It would be inefficient as hell. It is a good idea, but need serious work. How about a global senate, like the UN, but with actual power. All nations conform, or are shunned. All nations contribute to a single military/peacekeeping force. All nations still theoretically keep their sovereignty, like states in the US
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.- Carl Sagan

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Milks Empire
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Milks Empire » Thu May 14, 2009 10:33 pm

They tried something like this, but on a smaller scale, many times throughout history. I believe some of the best known were called the Hellenistic Empire, the Roman Empire, the Islamic Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Kalmar Union, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... did I miss any? But at any rate, you tell me... are any of these still around today?

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Cameroi
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Cameroi » Fri May 15, 2009 2:25 am

the choice is not whether or not we'll have one, but what kind do we want.

do we want a world dictated by the selfconcerned interests of one or a handful of the most powerful sovereignties, in truth, of the paracriminal economic interests that actually pull their puppet strings,

or do we want an unbiased means of protecting real people, places and things, from the thoughtless destructiveness of those same myopic interests, hiding themselves behind pretensions of patriotic ideology and self ritious religiosity?
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Romanar
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Romanar » Fri May 15, 2009 3:44 am

Cameroi wrote:the choice is not whether or not we'll have one, but what kind do we want.

do we want a world dictated by the selfconcerned interests of one or a handful of the most powerful sovereignties, in truth, of the paracriminal economic interests that actually pull their puppet strings,

or do we want an unbiased means of protecting real people, places and things, from the thoughtless destructiveness of those same myopic interests, hiding themselves behind pretensions of patriotic ideology and self ritious religiosity?


It's not which kind we want, but which kind we would get. Which kind of local/national governments have we gotten in the past?

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Bluth Corporation
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Bluth Corporation » Fri May 15, 2009 7:12 am

Milks Empire wrote:They tried something like this, but on a smaller scale, many times throughout history. I believe some of the best known were called the Hellenistic Empire, the Roman Empire, the Islamic Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Kalmar Union, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... did I miss any? But at any rate, you tell me... are any of these still around today?


I said that already :D
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Grays Harbor
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Grays Harbor » Fri May 15, 2009 12:01 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:
Never wrong People wrote:
No social or moral or religion issues

OK, this is the biggest fallacy of them all. World government would lead to Balkanization of the whole world.

People don't fight other people because they're from other countries. People fight other people because they don't like each other, regardless of how sane those reasons might be. World government would be Yugoslavia writ large. Putting Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Albanians, Slovenes, and others under a single government didn't cause them to magically stop fighting each other; world government would be the same thing on a global scale.


now, now. its not nice to confuse dreamy idealogues with rude things like facts. tsk tsk.

and I agree. Regionalism and factionalism would not disappear just because a handful of ivory tower theorists wish it so.
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Reunified Romania
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Reunified Romania » Fri May 15, 2009 12:13 pm

Civil World War waiting to happen. :D

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Gewinny
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Gewinny » Fri May 15, 2009 12:14 pm

Honestly, I think that would be a horrible idea unless we were a species with a hive mind. There's too much potential for it to become corrupt and not enough chance of the people being able to overthrow such a hulking mass of government. Of course, this also depends on the type of government. There's no way anything could please everyone - if it was a democracy-type set up, trying to get a unanimous vote would be absurd but if the majority took the vote minorities would be absolutely crushed out, and I think it would be difficult to enforce - or even pass - any kind of legislation that could stop that. I think such a system would ultimately degenerate into some kind of dictatorship.

Furthermore, in my opinion such a government would eventually break off into thousands of sub-governments - 'countries', you could call them - anyway. Like-minded people would gravitate to each other and form their own groups. Even if such groups weren't recognized by the government, they would fight each other nonetheless over opposing beliefs and simple hatred, so a worldwide system would do little or nothing to end war or conflict of any kind - in fact, in my opinion it might even increase them as group after group tried to disconnect themselves from the other groups, ultimately leading to a world war on an incredible scale.

Basically, I think it would cause more problems than it would solve (not to mention that it would be unrealistically difficult to achieve in the first place).
Last edited by Gewinny on Fri May 15, 2009 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Reunified Romania
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Reunified Romania » Fri May 15, 2009 12:23 pm

Basically, the Human has a very powerful sense of individualism. He already doesn't like being told what to do, imagine the chances of a gigantic global government trying to tell 10 billion people what to do. It's a pressure cooking waiting for the right moment to explode.

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Sanctus-Terra
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Sanctus-Terra » Fri May 15, 2009 12:25 pm

Never wrong People wrote:World Government - goals and why it would be great. :D

All laws are more powerful the local laws
Power of the purse, levy taxes and spend money
Relegation will balance the play field to not undermine the economy - to prevent bubbles in the economy and cause real growth
No tariffs - free trade for all
One currency - so simple
No social or moral or religion issues
World police force enforces all laws including human rights, has power to go anywhere to enforce laws civil rights and private protection are still around (right to trial and other protections)
Crime can be hunted everywhere - can not run from the cops :shock:
Global warning action can be taken if wanted
State sovereignty does not exist :o


No. World Government would quickly be taken down if it was ever put into effect. We have different countries because: If you don't like how one system of government works, you can move to a different country for a (hopefully) better life.
Looky at me, I'm back.

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Never wrong People
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Never wrong People » Fri May 15, 2009 1:46 pm

I would counter that some issues need to be deal with on a global level like the tracking down of criminals.
This thread is not for how the government would be set up. (in theory it could be anything)

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Never wrong People
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Never wrong People » Fri May 15, 2009 1:56 pm

Bluth Corporation wrote:
By and large, economy-specific regulation (as opposed to laws against things such as murder, theft, vandalism, fraud, etc. which apply to businesses and individuals alike) destabilizes the economy and inhibits growth because it makes any venture riskier, and forcing businesses to jump through bureaucratic hoops that don't actually contribute to production is obviously more inefficient than not forcing it.


It would be some regulation, but not giant amount.
A good sense of the regulation would be around the amount the US had under GWB.

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Northwest Slobovia
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Fri May 15, 2009 2:15 pm

Never wrong People wrote:World Government - goals and why it would be great. :D

All laws are more powerful the local laws

Please think very hard about this. Assume some form of representative democracy -- I can't imagine running the world by direct democracy. If votes are allocated by population, just the top five largest countries (China, India, US, Indonesia, and Brazil, in order) voting en bloc could force everybody else to do what they wanted. By "one country, one vote", some arrangement of tiny countries could inflict their will on the vast majority. A two-chamber system like the US would probably lead to the some of the Big Eleven (populations fall really quickly after that) allying with whoever is convenient to get their way.

Power of the purse, levy taxes and spend money

So the poor countries can legally rob the rich ones, I suppose. Ain't gonna happen.

Relegation will balance the play field to not undermine the economy - to prevent bubbles in the economy and cause real growth
No tariffs - free trade for all
One currency - so simple

This treats the world economy as a single unit, w/o any ability to adjust to local conditions. That barely works now for the large countries (both EU and US states slip into recession while other states have booms), so scaling it up will make those problems worse.

As a federalist at heart (note small "f"), I have just four words for this proposal: "absolute power corrupts absolutely". For the same reason, I see no reason to have a world government with any more power than just giving INTERPOL and the ICC some teeth.
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Power is an equal-opportunity corrupter.

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O-Seventon
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby O-Seventon » Fri May 15, 2009 4:21 pm

This is the UN's goal

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DrunkenDove
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby DrunkenDove » Sat May 16, 2009 7:43 am

Northwest Slobovia wrote:Please think very hard about this. Assume some form of representative democracy -- I can't imagine running the world by direct democracy. If votes are allocated by population, just the top five largest countries (China, India, US, Indonesia, and Brazil, in order) voting en bloc could force everybody else to do what they wanted. By "one country, one vote", some arrangement of tiny countries could inflict their will on the vast majority. A two-chamber system like the US would probably lead to the some of the Big Eleven (populations fall really quickly after that) allying with whoever is convenient to get their way.


The same could be said of all religions of all democracies. Just because it happens on a world scale doesn't mean that people from China are going to gang up on the people from Pakisitan any more than the people of Cornwall gang up on the people of Bath

So the poor countries can legally rob the rich ones, I suppose. Ain't gonna happen.


Already happens, and no one is that shook up about it. If anything, a world government would cut down on this kind of looting by giving the exploited a voice.

This treats the world economy as a single unit, w/o any ability to adjust to local conditions. That barely works now for the large countries (both EU and US states slip into recession while other states have booms), so scaling it up will make those problems worse.


Agreed. There must be some for of economic hegemony for a single currency to work.
As a federalist at heart (note small "f"), I have just four words for this proposal: "absolute power corrupts absolutely". For the same reason, I see no reason to have a world government with any more power than just giving INTERPOL and the ICC some teeth.


The idea that a world government would be dangerous because it's just too powerful just doesn't ignores the current power of local governments. Sure, if a dictator got hold on power we'd all be fucked, but the same is true of the current set-up. If a dictator got a hold on power in the US today, there's nothing that any other country would do to stop it. Countries go war for reasons of realpolitik, not to police the world into freedom.
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DrunkenDove
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby DrunkenDove » Sat May 16, 2009 7:46 am

O-Seventon wrote:This is the UN's goal


No it isn't. If it was, why would the US and China be in the driving seat? Both countries are notoriously independent and wholly suspicious of international organizations and muli-lateral efforts.
Last edited by DrunkenDove on Sat May 16, 2009 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ordo Drakul
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Ordo Drakul » Sat May 16, 2009 7:50 am

The US Constitution holds one of the best templates for a one-world government, though it's a largely ignored document these days...

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Southern Bred People
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Southern Bred People » Sat May 16, 2009 3:36 pm

:lol: :evil: like to see them try to take my guns!! :twisted:

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Southern Bred People
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Southern Bred People » Sat May 16, 2009 3:39 pm

Reunified Romania wrote:Basically, the Human has a very powerful sense of individualism. He already doesn't like being told what to do, imagine the chances of a gigantic global government trying to tell 10 billion people what to do. It's a pressure cooking waiting for the right moment to explode.

EXACTLY!!!

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Zavizar
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Zavizar » Sat May 16, 2009 3:53 pm

Milks Empire wrote:They tried something like this, but on a smaller scale, many times throughout history. I believe some of the best known were called the Hellenistic Empire, the Roman Empire, the Islamic Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Kalmar Union, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... did I miss any? But at any rate, you tell me... are any of these still around today?



Don't forget the Nazi German "Empire"!

I'm not really in support of government to begin with because either way you look at it government will always be corrupt.

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Milks Empire
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Re: World Government for Earth

Postby Milks Empire » Sat May 16, 2009 4:08 pm

Zavizar wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:They tried something like this, but on a smaller scale, many times throughout history. I believe some of the best known were called the Hellenistic Empire, the Roman Empire, the Islamic Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Kalmar Union, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics... did I miss any? But at any rate, you tell me... are any of these still around today?



Don't forget the Nazi German "Empire"!

I'm not really in support of government to begin with because either way you look at it government will always be corrupt.

Except Hitler wasn't trying to create an empire with people from multiple ethnicities. He was out to eradicate pretty much everyone but the Nordic "Aryan" people. Imagine his shock if he would have run into the real Aryans in India...

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