The swastika

[St George of England]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

But there's a difference between things that originated in Germany and things that were used to represent the Nazi regime.

Small nitpick: volkswagen was in fact something used to represent the nazi regime. "A car for everyone" was one of the many ways they wished to get public support, as well as a symbol of nazi prosperity.

Now see, I just learned something.

This is NSG, cut that shit out.

and another thing: if a shell that exploded in hitler's trench in ww1 had killed him and not just every else in the trench, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Geniasis]

Indeed, because the Germans would have then won

How do you figure?

[Just Mike]

The swastika is just a symbol of what happens when a socialist government runs riot

[Cybach]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

But that isn't the point of view that it's generally looked from, is it? The Nazi swastika (and Nazi eagle, SS death's head, etc) are all symbols and symbols, like words, have distinct meanings- they communicate ideas. You can't take a ride the Nazi swastika and you can't use it to shoot targets- it simply communicates an idea. And the ideas that the nazi swastika communicates are unambiguous and undeniably vile.

Nice straw-man though.

Don't know. For me as a German it can also represent a short revival of a golden age after the collapse and shithole that was the Weimar Republic. The whole Times electing Hitler to person of the year did not come out of thin air. Hitler did after all alleviate many ailments of the German lower and middle classes, such as tripling the retirement funds and providing poor citizens with cars. Likewise he did put an end to the bullying of German minorities and of Germany as a whole, mostly since his rapid re-armament, radicalization of the population and ultra-nationalist rhetoric had an intimidating effect.

Most Germans, or at least the ones I know, tend to sneer at the Weimar Republic. I don't know many people who praise it. Although likewise I know fairly few who would praise the Third Reich unequivocally. Most are happy with the modern Federal Republic.

[Cybach]

A matter of interest. Can an estonian or Latvian use the symbols of the Latvian/Estonian SS? After all in Estonia/Latvia the government and people consider the Waffen SS to be on par to liberators from "teh ebil" Soviets. Which leads to some odd spectacles such as Latvia holding an annual official parade in commemoration of the service of the Waffen SS in liberating and defending the country from Soviet aggression and occupation. Likewise the Estonian government released a calendar showing WW2 propaganda pictures of the Estonian Waffen SS which was quickly sold out. Both countries are also erecting memorials in commemoration of their Waffen SS units.

So "the idea" certainly seems to take a different tone in those countries. I've always been curious about that one in the "swastika" debates.



The SS symbols in question;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 5divss.svg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... vision.jpg

[St George of England]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

But that isn't the point of view that it's generally looked from, is it? The Nazi swastika (and Nazi eagle, SS death's head, etc) are all symbols and symbols, like words, have distinct meanings- they communicate ideas. You can't take a ride the Nazi swastika and you can't use it to shoot targets- it simply communicates an idea. And the ideas that the nazi swastika communicates are unambiguous and undeniably vile.

Nice straw-man though.

Don't know. For me as a German it can also represent a short revival of a golden age after the collapse and shithole that was the Weimar Republic. The whole Times electing Hitler to person of the year did not come out of thin air. Hitler did after all alleviate many ailments of the German lower and middle classes, such as tripling the retirement funds and providing poor citizens with cars. Likewise he did put an end to the bullying of German minorities and of Germany as a whole, mostly since his rapid re-armament, radicalization of the population and ultra-nationalist rhetoric had an intimidating effect.

Most Germans, or at least the ones I know, tend to sneer at the Weimar Republic. I don't know many people who praise it. Although likewise I know fairly few who would praise the Third Reich unequivocally. Most are happy with the modern Federal Republic.

The problem was that Ebert died. If he had lived, the depression, imo, would not have been as devastating to Germany as it was.

[Free Outer Eugenia]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

But that isn't the point of view that it's generally looked from, is it? The Nazi swastika (and Nazi eagle, SS death's head, etc) are all symbols and symbols, like words, have distinct meanings- they communicate ideas. You can't take a ride the Nazi swastika and you can't use it to shoot targets- it simply communicates an idea. And the ideas that the nazi swastika communicates are unambiguous and undeniably vile.

Nice straw-man though.

Don't know. For me as a German it can also represent a short revival of a golden age after the collapse and shithole that was the Weimar Republic. The whole Times electing Hitler to person of the year did not come out of thin air. Hitler did after all alleviate many ailments of the German lower and middle classes, such as tripling the retirement funds and providing poor citizens with cars. Likewise he did put an end to the bullying of German minorities and of Germany as a whole, mostly since his rapid re-armament, radicalization of the population and ultra-nationalist rhetoric had an intimidating effect.

Most Germans, or at least the ones I know, tend to sneer at the Weimar Republic. I don't know many people who praise it. Although likewise I know fairly few who would praise the Third Reich unequivocally. Most are happy with the modern Federal Republic.

That is like saying that remembering your grandmother's brutal rape and murder makes me think wistfully of all the nice things that I bought after I went through her wallet and melted down her gold teeth for bullion. You disgust me.

[Frisivisia]

I do have a question on why the Swastika is banned. Yes hitler used it as a symbol of nazism and he killed millions but as was already said he didn't invent the swastika. By that logic the Sickle and Hammer should be banned because it was used by Stalin who killed millions MORE than Hitler did.

I am afraid not. The sickle and hammer represents communism which (in theory) makes an utopian society, as opposed to Stalin.

[NERVUN]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

Ironically, the VW symbol probably invokes the 60's bugs and flower children (Peace, Love, Dope) more than Hitler... which just goes to show there is some justice in the world.

[Mediterreania]

The swastika is just a symbol of what happens when a socialist government runs riot

More like an insanely conservative social policy.

[Scarsaw]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

Ironically, the VW symbol probably invokes the 60's bugs and flower children (Peace, Love, Dope) more than Hitler... which just goes to show there is some justice in the world.

It just shows that we changed the meaning of the symbol by using it for something else, the same can happen for the swastika and I find it hilarious how we hate Nazism so...yet allow their symbols to control our emotions by enticing things such as hate and anger. Why not strip them (and when I say them, I mean the Neo-Nazis today) of that power by returning the swastika to it's original meaning? It isn't impossible and would only take 10-20 years, enough time for people's perceptions to shift. It would also remove a lot of the 'taboo-ness' and 'against society' that attracts so many to Neo-Nazism. Many neo-nazis start as youths, who are either attracted to the symbolism, the tabooness, or the brotherhood...so, why not reduce the first two reasons and start making it (the swastika and really Nazism in general) more out in the open...less 'forbidden' and attractive to some people.

[NERVUN]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

Ironically, the VW symbol probably invokes the 60's bugs and flower children (Peace, Love, Dope) more than Hitler... which just goes to show there is some justice in the world.

It just shows that we changed the meaning of the symbol by using it for something else, the same can happen for the swastika and I find it hilarious how we hate Nazism so...yet allow their symbols to control our emotions by enticing things such as hate and anger. Why not strip them (and when I say them, I mean the Neo-Nazis today) of that power by returning the swastika to it's original meaning? It isn't impossible and would only take 10-20 years, enough time for people's perceptions to shift. It would also remove a lot of the 'taboo-ness' and 'against society' that attracts so many to Neo-Nazism. Many neo-nazis start as youths, who are either attracted to the symbolism, the tabooness, or the brotherhood...so, why not reduce the first two reasons and start making it (the swastika and really Nazism in general) more out in the open...less 'forbidden' and attractive to some people.

I think it's going to take a bit longer than 10 or 20 years for that to happen.

Perhaps when that generation passes away...

[Scarsaw]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

Ironically, the VW symbol probably invokes the 60's bugs and flower children (Peace, Love, Dope) more than Hitler... which just goes to show there is some justice in the world.

It just shows that we changed the meaning of the symbol by using it for something else, the same can happen for the swastika and I find it hilarious how we hate Nazism so...yet allow their symbols to control our emotions by enticing things such as hate and anger. Why not strip them (and when I say them, I mean the Neo-Nazis today) of that power by returning the swastika to it's original meaning? It isn't impossible and would only take 10-20 years, enough time for people's perceptions to shift. It would also remove a lot of the 'taboo-ness' and 'against society' that attracts so many to Neo-Nazism. Many neo-nazis start as youths, who are either attracted to the symbolism, the tabooness, or the brotherhood...so, why not reduce the first two reasons and start making it (the swastika and really Nazism in general) more out in the open...less 'forbidden' and attractive to some people.

I think it's going to take a bit longer than 10 or 20 years for that to happen.

Perhaps when that generation passes away...

I don't mean that the symbol's evil meaning would be totally erased in that time, but that in that time it would be more accepted the good luck meaning as I notice that (with an active campaign or more take about 10 to 20 years as often it takes that long for the word or symbol to adopt a new meaning; a good example is the shift in the 'gay'.

In the 80's and 90's, it was popular and accepted (as least where I was) to use the phrase "that's gay" to mean "that's stupid"...not that it was homosexual, although that's what the word by itself (not use in that context) was to mean. As the 2000s came about, the phrase turned around quite a bit until it is placed on the level of other derogatory terms (as it should), and rarely heard at all unless said out of old habit (as breaking habits are hard).

Before then, well, everyone knows the evolution of the term "gay" throughout the last three generations...so, it shows that in about a span of 10-20 years (not necessary when every generation dies, but only when a generation has passed the point where it greatly influences popular culture) the meaning of words and symbols can change. I will admit, for something like the swastika, it will probably take longer because of the strong emphasis we have on it...but I wouldn't say "when that generation dies" as...well...most of them are already dead and the power of that word has remained the same.

The older generations (which includes ours) will most likely sways have the negative connotation with that symbol as that's how we were raised....but that doesn't mean that we can slowly start shifting the meaning so its positive meaning is also accepted. So that when people see a hand bag with a swastika on it, they won't immediately freak out. That's is where our generation can hope to be. Now, when that happens, then the generation coming up will most likely take the positive meaning as the initial meaning and only understand the symbol's negative meaning though historical and situational (such as Neo-nazi and hate) use...heck, ideally it might even loose much of it's neo-nazi use as peace and good fortune is often the last things the neos want. If most see it as that, why would neos want it beyond the historical ties...and even then?

But I digress in my dreaming.

[Reggenza del Carnaro]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

But that isn't the point of view that it's generally looked from, is it? The Nazi swastika (and Nazi eagle, SS death's head, etc) are all symbols and symbols, like words, have distinct meanings- they communicate ideas. You can't take a ride the Nazi swastika and you can't use it to shoot targets- it simply communicates an idea. And the ideas that the nazi swastika communicates are unambiguous and undeniably vile.

Nice straw-man though.

Don't know. For me as a German it can also represent a short revival of a golden age after the collapse and shithole that was the Weimar Republic. The whole Times electing Hitler to person of the year did not come out of thin air. Hitler did after all alleviate many ailments of the German lower and middle classes, such as tripling the retirement funds and providing poor citizens with cars. Likewise he did put an end to the bullying of German minorities and of Germany as a whole, mostly since his rapid re-armament, radicalization of the population and ultra-nationalist rhetoric had an intimidating effect.

Most Germans, or at least the ones I know, tend to sneer at the Weimar Republic. I don't know many people who praise it. Although likewise I know fairly few who would praise the Third Reich unequivocally. Most are happy with the modern Federal Republic.

That is like saying that remembering your grandmother's brutal rape and murder makes me think wistfully of all the nice things that I bought after I went through her wallet and melted down her gold teeth for bullion. You disgust me.

Don't understand your comparison... nor your derogatory conclusion.

[Scarsaw]

That is like saying that remembering your grandmother's brutal rape and murder makes me think wistfully of all the nice things that I bought after I went through her wallet and melted down her gold teeth for bullion. You disgust me.

No, it's more like saying that you loved your best friend and all the great things he did for you after your parent's divorce...too bad he became a mental case who burned down your house and killed the neighbours.

[Mushet]

Before it's association with Nazi Germany it was a good symbol, used the world over in some form, I think we should forget the nazis used it, those symbol stealing bastards

[Big Jim P]

I say it's never going to be legal for a flag on this site BECAUSE its historical value has been perverted forever by Hitler and by contemporary racist groups.

And this is a very sad thing. I respect the rules here, but really dislike the fact that this one is necessary.

Edited for clarity.

[The Alma Mater]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

Ironically, the VW symbol probably invokes the 60's bugs and flower children (Peace, Love, Dope) more than Hitler... which just goes to show there is some justice in the world.

It just shows that we changed the meaning of the symbol by using it for something else, the same can happen for the swastika and I find it hilarious how we hate Nazism so...yet allow their symbols to control our emotions by enticing things such as hate and anger. Why not strip them (and when I say them, I mean the Neo-Nazis today) of that power by returning the swastika to it's original meaning? It isn't impossible and would only take 10-20 years, enough time for people's perceptions to shift. It would also remove a lot of the 'taboo-ness' and 'against society' that attracts so many to Neo-Nazism. Many neo-nazis start as youths, who are either attracted to the symbolism, the tabooness, or the brotherhood...so, why not reduce the first two reasons and start making it (the swastika and really Nazism in general) more out in the open...less 'forbidden' and attractive to some people.

I think it's going to take a bit longer than 10 or 20 years for that to happen.

Perhaps when that generation passes away...

10 or 20 years from now should do that. And I actually agree with the sentiment - as long as the swastika causes feelings of .pain and fear, HItler is winning.

[The Black Forrest]

Looking at it from an 'everything to do with the nazis is wrong' point of view, then people should also be banned from owning porsches, VWs and Mercedes as well as any german made weapon.

Ironically, the VW symbol probably invokes the 60's bugs and flower children (Peace, Love, Dope) more than Hitler... which just goes to show there is some justice in the world.

It just shows that we changed the meaning of the symbol by using it for something else, the same can happen for the swastika and I find it hilarious how we hate Nazism so...yet allow their symbols to control our emotions by enticing things such as hate and anger. Why not strip them (and when I say them, I mean the Neo-Nazis today) of that power by returning the swastika to it's original meaning? It isn't impossible and would only take 10-20 years, enough time for people's perceptions to shift. It would also remove a lot of the 'taboo-ness' and 'against society' that attracts so many to Neo-Nazism. Many neo-nazis start as youths, who are either attracted to the symbolism, the tabooness, or the brotherhood...so, why not reduce the first two reasons and start making it (the swastika and really Nazism in general) more out in the open...less 'forbidden' and attractive to some people.

I think it's going to take a bit longer than 10 or 20 years for that to happen.

Perhaps when that generation passes away...

10 or 20 years from now should do that. And I actually agree with the sentiment - as long as the swastika causes feelings of .pain and fear, HItler is winning.

So.......we let you have the Nazi flag, Hitler isn't wining?

[WWII History Geeks]

This thread wouldn't happen to be about the ban on Swastikas on flags in NS would it?

*cough*Not enforced*cough*

[UberWeegeeia]

Why did "I blame the jews for not being able to grow full facial hair." have to ruin such a neat looking symbol?

[NERVUN]

This thread wouldn't happen to be about the ban on Swastikas on flags in NS would it?

*cough*Not enforced*cough*

You can report any violations through Getting Help and we do indeed enforce it.

[Free Outer Eugenia]

That is like saying that remembering your grandmother's brutal rape and murder makes me think wistfully of all the nice things that I bought after I went through her wallet and melted down her gold teeth for bullion. You disgust me.

No, it's more like saying that you loved your best friend and all the great things he did for you after your parent's divorce...too bad he became a mental case who burned down your house and killed the neighbors.

"Became" is really putting it the wrong way, historically speaking. The Nuremberg laws were passed quite soon after the murdering scum came into power. The fact that their later actions very much reflected what their rhetoric had been when they were out of power is also significant here. If your friend spent these 'good times' (as well as several years previously) stockpiling guns and gasoline while obsessively yammering about what horrible things he was going to do to your neighbors and the wonderful mosaic he would make out of their teeth on your bathroom wall, then your metaphor would be apt. In this case, you would do better to gnash your teeth over the fact that you let the bastard do it (hell, you loaded his gun for him!) than reminisce about the 'good times.' If you could even find the ability to do the latter, you are unspeakably loathsome and vile. Not to mention more than a little bit stupid.

Don't understand your comparison... nor your derogatory conclusion.

Then you should read up on the Nazi regime in Germany. Knowing what the conversation is actually about will make you understand perfectly. I'd stay away from any sources that pretend that the holocaust didn't happen and that the Jews run the banks.

[Ermarian]

The swastika.




A feared and hated symble mostly affiliated to nazi germany. But, Hitler did not make the symble, he simply chose it as the centerpiece of nazi pride. I want your opinions, NSG, should the swastika be an evil symble, or a one that resembles power, and pride?

There's nothing wrong with cymbals; they are a very nice musical instrument.

[Free Outer Eugenia]

The swastika.




A feared and hated symble mostly affiliated to nazi germany. But, Hitler did not make the symble, he simply chose it as the centerpiece of nazi pride. I want your opinions, NSG, should the swastika be an evil symble, or a one that resembles power, and pride?

There's nothing wrong with cymbals

Unless they have swastikas on them