Kosovo Secession Declared Legal

[Dimzul]

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

Just like you let the Southern States secede?

The south should rise again. and I think Texas should secede. I've been waiting for a independ Texas all my life.

[Ceannairceach]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

I'm not sure what you mean by confused, but it was primarily the US bombing Serbia that did it.
In other cicumstances, I suspect the US would not have been so quick to act. But given Serbia's aggresson towards SLovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, assuming Serbia was the aggressor yet again was quite reasonable.

Ah, well thats a good example. If it was justified.
I'm looking up sources as I type. You see, America did bomb Serbia. Though, they didn't bomb anything important. The Serbs used fake tanks, bases, roads, artillery, etc. to allow the US to bomb things for weeks on end and not destroy a single thing.

Yet, Serbia withdrew from Kosovo. I really don't care if the military hit a damned thing; the ultimate goal of the exercise was accomplished. Actually, better this way - we get to use our toys, nobody much gets killed. Win/win.

True, they did technically "win", but the way you made it sound was as if Kosovo and America had completely destroyed Serbia in the war. When not only was Serbia right in the conflict (inho), but they could have sustained the war for far longer without many casualties.
Also, I found a source.

Nice source. I actually knew most of it.
Unfortunately, the writer's a moron. "All of which casts serious doubt on Nato's wartime propaganda." Well of COURSE the propaganda wasn't accurate! It's PROPAGANDA, not a history report!
I have to agree, the Serb forces played it good and smart; their maskirovka were meticulous and well executed. I think it was ultimately a political decision to withdraw; that, and the fact that however clever their military was, they didn't really have the capacity to strike back at the US forces. It's very difficult to win a war on the defensive.

Sadly, many do actually buy into propoganda. Sad thing.
And I sort of guessed you knew most of it already. You seem like a smart fellow.
I can agree on that. Really, not many nations have the power to fight against a monster like the US. Sort of like asking for someone to murder you. Well, I guess all I can do is wait for Sept. 9th with crossed fingers.

[Tergnitz]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.

So you would be perfectly fine with your country being split apart, piece by piece? If Kosovo fought a war on its own and won against Serbia, then their claim to independence would hold at least some validity, but they didn't. The US, playing the role of the globe-striding imperialist (so frequently criticized by the left) intervened and forced Serbia to back down.

[Dododecapod]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.

So you would be perfectly fine with your country being split apart, piece by piece? If Kosovo fought a war on its own and won against Serbia, then their claim to independence would hold at least some validity, but they didn't. The US, playing the role of the globe-striding imperialist (so frequently criticized by the left) intervened and forced Serbia to back down.

Yup. Just like the Kingdom of France intervened when the 13 colonies rebelled against Great Britain back in 1776.
If a people, group, or geographical area have the will, the wherewithal and the guts to fight for their freedom as an independent state, and either the military force or the political and diplomatic acumen to pull it off, then they've earned the right to be independent. And I am not a hypocrite - if some part of the US ever manages the same trick, then let it stand.

[Ceannairceach]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.

So you would be perfectly fine with your country being split apart, piece by piece? If Kosovo fought a war on its own and won against Serbia, then their claim to independence would hold at least some validity, but they didn't. The US, playing the role of the globe-striding imperialist (so frequently criticized by the left) intervened and forced Serbia to back down.

Yup. Just like the Kingdom of France intervened when the 13 colonies rebelled against Great Britain back in 1776.
If a people, group, or geographical area have the will, the wherewithal and the guts to fight for their freedom as an independent state, and either the military force or the political and diplomatic acumen to pull it off, then they've earned the right to be independent. And I am not a hypocrite - if some part of the US ever manages the same trick, then let it stand.

You make a good argument, but its thoughts like that which make me want to destroy the UN, EU, NATO, etc.
really, all Kosovo is is a state that owes NATO and primarily the USA their lives and freedom. A puppet in the Balkans, so to speak.

[Dododecapod]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.

So you would be perfectly fine with your country being split apart, piece by piece? If Kosovo fought a war on its own and won against Serbia, then their claim to independence would hold at least some validity, but they didn't. The US, playing the role of the globe-striding imperialist (so frequently criticized by the left) intervened and forced Serbia to back down.

Yup. Just like the Kingdom of France intervened when the 13 colonies rebelled against Great Britain back in 1776.
If a people, group, or geographical area have the will, the wherewithal and the guts to fight for their freedom as an independent state, and either the military force or the political and diplomatic acumen to pull it off, then they've earned the right to be independent. And I am not a hypocrite - if some part of the US ever manages the same trick, then let it stand.

You make a good argument, but its thoughts like that which make me want to destroy the UN, EU, NATO, etc.
really, all Kosovo is is a state that owes NATO and primarily the USA their lives and freedom. A puppet in the Balkans, so to speak.

For now. Change is the only constant in politics, though, and Kosovo wil have to live with the fact that Serbia is it's biggest and most important neighbour, while the US is across the Atlantic and has bigger fish to fry. Just as the US had to come to an accomodation with Great Britain in the end, Kosovo and Serbia will have to come to some form of arrangement - likely being Kosovo as an economic satellite of Serbia.

[Ceannairceach]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.

So you would be perfectly fine with your country being split apart, piece by piece? If Kosovo fought a war on its own and won against Serbia, then their claim to independence would hold at least some validity, but they didn't. The US, playing the role of the globe-striding imperialist (so frequently criticized by the left) intervened and forced Serbia to back down.

Yup. Just like the Kingdom of France intervened when the 13 colonies rebelled against Great Britain back in 1776.
If a people, group, or geographical area have the will, the wherewithal and the guts to fight for their freedom as an independent state, and either the military force or the political and diplomatic acumen to pull it off, then they've earned the right to be independent. And I am not a hypocrite - if some part of the US ever manages the same trick, then let it stand.

You make a good argument, but its thoughts like that which make me want to destroy the UN, EU, NATO, etc.
really, all Kosovo is is a state that owes NATO and primarily the USA their lives and freedom. A puppet in the Balkans, so to speak.

For now. Change is the only constant in politics, though, and Kosovo wil have to live with the fact that Serbia is it's biggest and most important neighbour, while the US is across the Atlantic and has bigger fish to fry. Just as the US had to come to an accomodation with Great Britain in the end, Kosovo and Serbia will have to come to some form of arrangement - likely being Kosovo as an economic satellite of Serbia.

What I foresee is Kosovo getting a Canada treatment, with Serbia becoming the UK. Seems like a good guess. A thing I have a problem with is all the churches that will probably get destroyed by the Kosovoans if they get sanction as an independent nation. Thousands of years of beauty could be destroyed, and have been destroyed.

[Marcurix]

Self-determination if they want it they do get it i suppose.

It's not as if the Albainian claim has no base, the peoples or ethnic Albanians at least have been in Kosovo atleast since the time of the Romans and before the expansions of the various Slavic peoples into Europe. A group which included the Serbs. Simply have the refferendum, those areas that support indpependence get it, those that dont do not.

Should that happen then Kosovo will be roughly 5 states smaller, with one or two holes.

[Dododecapod]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.

So you would be perfectly fine with your country being split apart, piece by piece? If Kosovo fought a war on its own and won against Serbia, then their claim to independence would hold at least some validity, but they didn't. The US, playing the role of the globe-striding imperialist (so frequently criticized by the left) intervened and forced Serbia to back down.

Yup. Just like the Kingdom of France intervened when the 13 colonies rebelled against Great Britain back in 1776.
If a people, group, or geographical area have the will, the wherewithal and the guts to fight for their freedom as an independent state, and either the military force or the political and diplomatic acumen to pull it off, then they've earned the right to be independent. And I am not a hypocrite - if some part of the US ever manages the same trick, then let it stand.

You make a good argument, but its thoughts like that which make me want to destroy the UN, EU, NATO, etc.
really, all Kosovo is is a state that owes NATO and primarily the USA their lives and freedom. A puppet in the Balkans, so to speak.

For now. Change is the only constant in politics, though, and Kosovo wil have to live with the fact that Serbia is it's biggest and most important neighbour, while the US is across the Atlantic and has bigger fish to fry. Just as the US had to come to an accomodation with Great Britain in the end, Kosovo and Serbia will have to come to some form of arrangement - likely being Kosovo as an economic satellite of Serbia.

What I foresee is Kosovo getting a Canada treatment, with Serbia becoming the UK. Seems like a good guess. A thing I have a problem with is all the churches that will probably get destroyed by the Kosovoans if they get sanction as an independent nation. Thousands of years of beauty could be destroyed, and have been destroyed.

"The cost of war is more than the lives lost." - Anthony Baker, British Diplomat, on seeing the ruins of the Acropolis post the Greek war of independence.

[Wisentia]

So by this argument if millions of Mexicans(for example only, I do not hate Mexicans) in the south wanted to secede, that would be fine?

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

/thread

I'm disappointed in you Kali

In fact, something like that did happen in the South. The year was 1845. The province in play was called Texas. And the Mexicans living there wanted to secede from Mexico. Are you saying that the United States had no business recognising the secession? Are you saying Texas had no sovereignty to join the USA? Because I'd love to present THAT thesis to Governor Perry.

[Ceannairceach]

So by this argument if millions of Mexicans(for example only, I do not hate Mexicans) in the south wanted to secede, that would be fine?

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

/thread

I'm disappointed in you Kali

In fact, something like that did happen in the South. The year was 1845. The province in play was called Texas. And the Mexicans living there wanted to secede from Mexico. Are you saying that the United States had no business recognising the secession? Are you saying Texas had no sovereignty to join the USA? Because I'd love to present THAT thesis to Governor Perry.

Meh, that was a tired example. And beside my opinions about how Texas should be independent, I do think Mexico should get Texas and its former territories if Texas would not become independent.

[Lietvos]

I really wish people wouldn't keep citing BS mantras like 'If a people want to secede, they have a right to it'. Idiocy. The entire idea of Sovereignty goes down the drain if this is a case. Also the comparison someone made to the British EMpire and India is again sheer crap if you gave it the slightest thought - there is no resemblance between British imperialism and the affair in Kosovo, which has been Serbian Land for a thousand years until large numbers of Muslim Albanians began squatting there under the ottomans. This comparison is then similar to these two cases 1) I come to your house, beat the crap out of you and your family and claim your house as my own - In this case you have a perfectly good reason to be annoyed 2) I have a house with plenty of space in which you being homeless rent a room - we get along merrily until one day you burst in the kitchen with some big tough friends from the US and Nato saying that that room is officially your property as you've been living there so long - see a problem?
P.S The second example is the Kosovo mockery by the way.

P.P.S Anyone else think it's amusing that the Albanians are probably the only US-backed muslims in history?

[Ceannairceach]

I really wish people wouldn't keep citing BS mantras like 'If a people want to secede, they have a right to it'. Idiocy. The entire idea of Sovereignty goes down the drain if this is a case. Also the comparison someone made to the British EMpire and India is again sheer crap if you gave it the slightest thought - there is no resemblance between British imperialism and the affair in Kosovo, which has been Serbian Land for a thousand years until large numbers of Muslim Albanians began squatting there under the ottomans. This comparison is then similar to these two cases 1) I come to your house, beat the crap out of you and your family and claim your house as my own - In this case you have a perfectly good reason to be annoyed 2) I have a house with plenty of space in which you being homeless rent a room - we get along merrily until one day you burst in the kitchen with some big tough friends from the US and Nato saying that that room is officially your property as you've been living there so long - see a problem?
P.S The second example is the Kosovo mockery by the way.

P.P.S Anyone else think it's amusing that the Albanians are probably the only US-backed muslims in history?

I love you!

In the brotherly way, of course. And as to your PPS, isn't Turkey backed by the USA? Then theirs Kuwait, I believe...

[Chumblywumbly]

I really wish people wouldn't keep citing BS mantras like 'If a people want to secede, they have a right to it'. Idiocy. The entire idea of Sovereignty goes down the drain if this is a case.

And this is bad because...?

Also the comparison someone made to the British EMpire and India is again sheer crap if you gave it the slightest thought...

I made no direct comparison between Kosovo and India, I simply used the examples of Kosovo and India as two cases of self-determination.

[Lietvos]

And this is bad because...?

Oh wait, you're an anarchist. I can't be bothered to argue then.

I love you!

In the brotherly way, of course. And as to your PPS, isn't Turkey backed by the USA? Then theirs Kuwait, I believe...

Yeah, I'm uh ... fond of you too Cean. As to Turkey and Kuwait, yeah you're right my bad. They're the friendly carpet-selling muslims, not the angry Jihad declaring kind.

[Militsia]

I think it is great news for other regions that want their independence and hopefully it will be a warning against the danger of immigration.
The Albanians moved into the area, outnumbered the locals and then they declared independence. I can imagine the same thing happening elsewhere as well, "south of the border" will be close than we have been used to.

[Chumblywumbly]

And this is bad because...?

Oh wait, you're an anarchist. I can't be bothered to argue then.

Then what on Earth are you doing frequenting a (political) debate forum?

[Angleter]

Kosovo is a meaningless state with no ethnic basis for its existence apart from Albania. Serbia and Albania (and possibly Montenegro) ought to get together and sort out the borders in Kosovo between them, mostly on ethnic lines.

[Angleter]

P.P.S Anyone else think it's amusing that the Albanians are probably the only US-backed muslims in history?

Bosniaks? Kuwait? Iraq? Afghanistan? Turkey? Saudi? Morocco? Egypt? Indonesia?

[Cybach]

If the people living in the region want to secede, they should be able to do so. Blah blah blah, Self Determination, etc.

The contentious issue is that the original inhabitants were Serbs who were ethnically cleansed out over the years. It is de-facto "oking" ethnic cleansing. It is similar to California, New Mexico and Arizona deciding to leave the US should Mexicans make up 80% of the population through mass immigration and then mass murdering the former non-mexican population in a series of pogroms. Would you be accepting of this?

[Cybach]

If Kosovo gets it's independence. Why exactly should the Republic Sprska also not be allowed to secede from Bosnia?

[Lackadaisical2]

If Kosovo gets it's independence. Why exactly should the Republic Sprska also not be allowed to secede from Bosnia?

Ain't got the might.

[Forster Keys]

In my both personal and humble opinion, a nation is a group of people who identify with a common culture or a group of cultures who express a will to work together as a nation. If a region, Abkhazia, Kosovo etc. wants to secede then let them! Regards should be given to their length of occupation of an area but basically, a people have a right to self-determination. Plebiscite.

Its like a divorce. One partner in a nation wants to leave, the other wants them to stay together. Forcing them to stay together would both be unjust and plainly unproductive.

[Cybach]

If Kosovo gets it's independence. Why exactly should the Republic Sprska also not be allowed to secede from Bosnia?

Ain't got the might.

They do. They are more powerful than Bosnia. In fact they kicked Bosnia's ass in the civil war. They possess after Serbia the most powerful regional military.

They're certainly more "mighty" than a piss state like Kosovo.

[Keeial]

Kosovo is a small country with a small army. So if they were ever attacked and the UN wasnt their they would be crushed.