Kosovo Secession Declared Legal

[Kalibarr]

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

/thread

[Ceannairceach]

I support Kosovo as an independent nation, due to right of self-determination.

I don't get this argument. Its Serbian land, with Serbian people occupying it. But, when ethnic Albanians want it, they can have it? Really, that doesn't make sense.

It makes sense in the same way that the US, India, etc., are no longer part of the British Empire.

The people of a territory - not the claimant(s) of a territory - get together, by various means, and determine for themselves whether they wish to be an independent territory.

So by this argument if millions of Mexicans(for example only, I do not hate Mexicans) in the south wanted to secede, that would be fine?

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

/thread

I'm disappointed in you Kali

[Scarsaw]

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

/thread

I agree, but I can also see that they will fail as an independent nation...their only hope is to be adopted by Albania. It is like if Quebec secede from Canada; sure they can do that if they have a majority...but it won't last long with the lifestyle they're used to without the support of a larger nation.

[Scarsaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smlrSYiYd_o

Enough said.

That was pretty good.

"We'll kick their ass, and then we'll see how it goes"

It's the perfect peacekeeping song...my favourate line is "we screw ya, Rwanda, wish we could have helped ya"

[Chumblywumbly]

It makes sense in the same way that the US, India, etc., are no longer part of the British Empire.

The people of a territory - not the claimant(s) of a territory - get together, by various means, and determine for themselves whether they wish to be an independent territory.

So by this argument if millions of Mexicans(for example only, I do not hate Mexicans) in the south wanted to secede, that would be fine?

If 'millions of Mexicans' constituted the population of a part of the southern US, then yes.

[Dimzul]

Freedom for Chiapas!!

[Novistranaya]

I support Kosovo as an independent nation, due to right of self-determination.

I don't get this argument. Its Serbian land, with Serbian people occupying it. But, when ethnic Albanians want it, they can have it? Really, that doesn't make sense. To me, that looks like Albania attempting to decrease the power of Serbia and increase their influence in the Balkans and elsewhere.

What I imagine is that Albania will step in once Kosovo fails as an independent state, and over time they will annex it into Albania.

Not going to happen. The Albanian government promised that they wouldn't, and we can always trust the word of politicians no matter their nationality :nods:!

[Yenke-Bin]

I support Kosovo as an independent nation, due to right of self-determination.

I don't get this argument. Its Serbian land, with Serbian people occupying it. But, when ethnic Albanians want it, they can have it? Really, that doesn't make sense. To me, that looks like Albania attempting to decrease the power of Serbia and increase their influence in the Balkans and elsewhere.

What I imagine is that Albania will step in once Kosovo fails as an independent state, and over time they will annex it into Albania.

Not going to happen. The Albanian government promised that they wouldn't, and we can always trust the word of politicians no matter their nationality :nods:!

And the sad thing is that the US would stand by and let it happen. For some reason, US and Albania have a hard on for each other.

[Daistallia 2104]

This will be a major thread on Kosovo from now.

That isn't your decision to make. And this is not a likely topic to make it to megathread status.

Don't open any new threads if not necessary (example: escalation of armed conflict between Serbia and Kosovo).

Other threads on the topic can and will be opened, as long as they fall under the rules. In fact, not opening a new thread at the appropriate time rather than reviving this after it dies the quick death it will most likely meet will would constitute a rules violation.

(Making fun of the thread, spamming, trolling and flooding will result in me requesting a temporary ban of the user from the forums from a moderator)

You've been around long enough to know better than that, as well as the above BS you're trying to pull.

[Hornopolis]

This will be a major thread on Kosovo from now.

That isn't your decision to make. And this is not a likely topic to make it to megathread status.

Don't open any new threads if not necessary (example: escalation of armed conflict between Serbia and Kosovo).

Other threads on the topic can and will be opened, as long as they fall under the rules. In fact, not opening a new thread at the appropriate time rather than reviving this after it dies the quick death it will most likely meet will would constitute a rules violation.

(Making fun of the thread, spamming, trolling and flooding will result in me requesting a temporary ban of the user from the forums from a moderator)

You've been around long enough to know better than that, as well as the above BS you're trying to pull.

/BUUURN/

I hope Kosovo fails and has to return to Serbia all sad.

[Katganistan]

This will be a major thread on Kosovo from now. Don't open any new threads if not necessary (example: escalation of armed conflict between Serbia and Kosovo).

Don't direct other players as to what threads they may or may not choose to create.

(Making fun of the thread, spamming, trolling and flooding will result in me requesting a temporary ban of the user from the forums from a moderator)

And we will make the determination if any of those are appropriate or not. Please don't use Mods as a Weapon to get people to post the way you want them to.

[New Manvir]

I say we reanimate Tito and let him whip the whole area back into shape.

[Ceannairceach]

I say we reanimate Tito and let him whip the whole area back into shape.

Agreed. But lets make a copy, and send him somewhere else as well.
I won't say where, but you all know who I'm thinking about...

[Dimzul]

I say we reanimate Tito and let him whip the whole area back into shape.

Freedom for Yugoslavia!!

[Dododecapod]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

[Ceannairceach]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

[Dododecapod]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

I'm not sure what you mean by confused, but it was primarily the US bombing Serbia that did it.
In other cicumstances, I suspect the US would not have been so quick to act. But given Serbia's aggresson towards SLovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, assuming Serbia was the aggressor yet again was quite reasonable.

[Ceannairceach]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

I'm not sure what you mean by confused, but it was primarily the US bombing Serbia that did it.
In other cicumstances, I suspect the US would not have been so quick to act. But given Serbia's aggresson towards SLovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, assuming Serbia was the aggressor yet again was quite reasonable.

Ah, well thats a good example. If it was justified.
I'm looking up sources as I type. You see, America did bomb Serbia. Though, they didn't bomb anything important. The Serbs used fake tanks, bases, roads, artillery, etc. to allow the US to bomb things for weeks on end and not destroy a single thing.

[Dododecapod]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

I'm not sure what you mean by confused, but it was primarily the US bombing Serbia that did it.
In other cicumstances, I suspect the US would not have been so quick to act. But given Serbia's aggresson towards SLovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, assuming Serbia was the aggressor yet again was quite reasonable.

Ah, well thats a good example. If it was justified.
I'm looking up sources as I type. You see, America did bomb Serbia. Though, they didn't bomb anything important. The Serbs used fake tanks, bases, roads, artillery, etc. to allow the US to bomb things for weeks on end and not destroy a single thing.

Yet, Serbia withdrew from Kosovo. I really don't care if the military hit a damned thing; the ultimate goal of the exercise was accomplished. Actually, better this way - we get to use our toys, nobody much gets killed. Win/win.

[Ceannairceach]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

I'm not sure what you mean by confused, but it was primarily the US bombing Serbia that did it.
In other cicumstances, I suspect the US would not have been so quick to act. But given Serbia's aggresson towards SLovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, assuming Serbia was the aggressor yet again was quite reasonable.

Ah, well thats a good example. If it was justified.
I'm looking up sources as I type. You see, America did bomb Serbia. Though, they didn't bomb anything important. The Serbs used fake tanks, bases, roads, artillery, etc. to allow the US to bomb things for weeks on end and not destroy a single thing.

Yet, Serbia withdrew from Kosovo. I really don't care if the military hit a damned thing; the ultimate goal of the exercise was accomplished. Actually, better this way - we get to use our toys, nobody much gets killed. Win/win.

True, they did technically "win", but the way you made it sound was as if Kosovo and America had completely destroyed Serbia in the war. When not only was Serbia right in the conflict (inho), but they could have sustained the war for far longer without many casualties.
Also, I found a source.

[Tergnitz]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

[Ceannairceach]

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

[Tergnitz]

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

Just like you let the Southern States secede?

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

[Dododecapod]

The Kosovars won effective independence in the one and only way that historically matters: They and their allies (many of whom were only "enemies of my enemy", but ultimately their allies still) fought for it and won. All else is commentary.

Please explain how they "fought for it and won." I've seen the Serbian military, and their no pushovers in my opinion, and their smart at that!*

*Smart enough to confuse America, that is...

I'm not sure what you mean by confused, but it was primarily the US bombing Serbia that did it.
In other cicumstances, I suspect the US would not have been so quick to act. But given Serbia's aggresson towards SLovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, assuming Serbia was the aggressor yet again was quite reasonable.

Ah, well thats a good example. If it was justified.
I'm looking up sources as I type. You see, America did bomb Serbia. Though, they didn't bomb anything important. The Serbs used fake tanks, bases, roads, artillery, etc. to allow the US to bomb things for weeks on end and not destroy a single thing.

Yet, Serbia withdrew from Kosovo. I really don't care if the military hit a damned thing; the ultimate goal of the exercise was accomplished. Actually, better this way - we get to use our toys, nobody much gets killed. Win/win.

True, they did technically "win", but the way you made it sound was as if Kosovo and America had completely destroyed Serbia in the war. When not only was Serbia right in the conflict (inho), but they could have sustained the war for far longer without many casualties.
Also, I found a source.

Nice source. I actually knew most of it.
Unfortunately, the writer's a moron. "All of which casts serious doubt on Nato's wartime propaganda." Well of COURSE the propaganda wasn't accurate! It's PROPAGANDA, not a history report!
I have to agree, the Serb forces played it good and smart; their maskirovka were meticulous and well executed. I think it was ultimately a political decision to withdraw; that, and the fact that however clever their military was, they didn't really have the capacity to strike back at the US forces. It's very difficult to win a war on the defensive.

[Dododecapod]

If a majority want to secede then they can secede. A Majority wanted to secede.

Just like you let the Southern States secede?

Kosovo is Serbia; the sheer idea of an independent Kosovo is insulting.

Again, I agree with this.

Good man. If Kosovo can become independent, then Arizona or Texas can become independent in the next 20-30 years when the Mexican population is high enough. The only way to prevent this type of divisive thinking is to ensure that the historical territory of a country is never splintered without the consensus of that entire nation.

If Texas or Arizona fight a war and win, or get enough allies to come and "white knight" for them, then they deserve to be independent. It IS the gold standard for becoming an independent state.