Do women ask to be sexually harrassed/assaulted?

[Geniasis]

Where does anyone talk about flirtation?

Flirtation is "Wow, I looked over here and can't believe how gorgeous the sun is in your hair..." or something innocuous... not "HEY BABY WANNA FUCK YOU KNOW YOU WANNA!" and throwing her to the floor.

If you think that people are talking about a guy initiating a conversation and trying to get to know a person better, your views on proper dating techniques or your reading comprehension seem to be very skewed.

Wait, so I can flirt with girls and have it not be considered rape?

Shit, I think we've just hit the root of my 99 problems*.
*Guess which ain't one.

[Ryadn]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

[Czardas]

The clothes make the man; naked people have almost no influence on society.

Sigged!

You may as well attribute that properly, it having been originally coined by a gentleman known as Samuel Clemens, Esq.

[Buffett and Colbert]

You can't get me to be impartial on this one; I'm a misogynist.

WOMEN SUCK.

Only if you're lucky.

[NERVUN]

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

*wants to see a vid of that*
Me, personally, no. If I see someone looking good, I'm going to look. Not stare, leer, wolfwhistle, chase down the street, or suddenly ask her out to tea and a love hotel (Especially not the last, wife would kill me). But humans are visual critters so if that kind of visual is presented, I can look, aknowledge the information, maybe nod slightly to myself and mummer "Nice", and keep going because while I'm visually attuned, it doesn't mean I'm controled by it either.

[Ryadn]

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

*wants to see a vid of that*
Me, personally, no. If I see someone looking good, I'm going to look. Not stare, leer, wolfwhistle, chase down the street, or suddenly ask her out to tea and a love hotel (Especially not the last, wife would kill me). But humans are visual critters so if that kind of visual is presented, I can look, aknowledge the information, maybe nod slightly to myself and mummer "Nice", and keep going because while I'm visually attuned, it doesn't mean I'm controled by it either.

It was pretty bad. The worst part was the guy absolutely knew how stunning he was (part or all Native, hair to his collarbones, perfect complexion, high cheekbones--jesus). Actually, it may have been a garbage can I walked into. I don't think that makes it less embarrassing. :/

[Muravyets]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

Of course I'm not offended by someone letting me know they think I look good, but let's not kid ourselves - that's not what we're talking about, not any of us, on either side.

We've got a group of posters here trying like hell to erase the line between OK behavior and Not-OK behavior, and put all the blame for harassment on the women who are the targets of it. If we follow their thinking, then we'd have to believe there is no such thing as harassment. There are only innocent men being lured by women who dress themselves up as bait only so we can then humiliate said men with false accusations dreamed up by hysterical females who hate all men. But any man who has ever gone on a date knows that's utter and complete bullshit and that women do not treat any attention as harassment. Period.

But that bullshit is part and parcel of the "blame the victim" game that has also them insisting that rape only happens because women don't dress right to prevent it -- that if we want to avoid bad things we should dress for the perverts of the world, and if we don't then we deserve what we get.

[Bottle]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

Of course I'm not offended by someone letting me know they think I look good, but let's not kid ourselves - that's not what we're talking about, not any of us, on either side.

We've got a group of posters here trying like hell to erase the line between OK behavior and Not-OK behavior, and put all the blame for harassment on the women who are the targets of it. If we follow their thinking, then we'd have to believe there is no such thing as harassment. There are only innocent men being lured by women who dress themselves up as bait only so we can then humiliate said men with false accusations dreamed up by hysterical females who hate all men. But any man who has ever gone on a date knows that's utter and complete bullshit and that women do not treat any attention as harassment. Period.

But that bullshit is part and parcel of the "blame the victim" game that has also them insisting that rape only happens because women don't dress right to prevent it -- that if we want to avoid bad things we should dress for the perverts of the world, and if we don't then we deserve what we get.

For serious. I'm really fucking sick of guys (and girls) assuming that women are absolute fucking morons.

There is a difference between giving a second look to somebody you find attractive, and staring/leering/harassing that person. It is very, very, very fucking easy to tell the difference.

"Oooh, you feminists are so mean, you hate guys for flirting!!" Bullshit. Flirting : harassing :: sex : rape. The line between flirting and harassing is as simple and clear as the line between sex and rape, because it's that line of DOES THE OTHER PERSON WANT THIS CONTACT. If you give somebody an appreciative look and she responds favorably, that's called "flirting." But if you "flirt" with a woman and she doesn't respond, or pulls away, or gives you a mean look, or otherwise makes it clear that she isn't interested in your flirting, then you stop. If you don't stop, then you're an asshole and a harasser, because you've decided that your desire to "flirt" with her is more important than the fact that she doesn't want your attention. Assholes like to make it seem like it is OH SO DIFFICULT to figure out this simple concept, to which I can only reply that if you are really that stupid then you shouldn't be out in public without an attendant who can make sure you don't walk into traffic or pee yourself in public.

[Sdaeriji]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

Of course I'm not offended by someone letting me know they think I look good, but let's not kid ourselves - that's not what we're talking about, not any of us, on either side.

We've got a group of posters here trying like hell to erase the line between OK behavior and Not-OK behavior, and put all the blame for harassment on the women who are the targets of it. If we follow their thinking, then we'd have to believe there is no such thing as harassment. There are only innocent men being lured by women who dress themselves up as bait only so we can then humiliate said men with false accusations dreamed up by hysterical females who hate all men. But any man who has ever gone on a date knows that's utter and complete bullshit and that women do not treat any attention as harassment. Period.

But that bullshit is part and parcel of the "blame the victim" game that has also them insisting that rape only happens because women don't dress right to prevent it -- that if we want to avoid bad things we should dress for the perverts of the world, and if we don't then we deserve what we get.

For serious. I'm really fucking sick of guys (and girls) assuming that women are absolute fucking morons.

There is a difference between giving a second look to somebody you find attractive, and staring/leering/harassing that person. It is very, very, very fucking easy to tell the difference.

"Oooh, you feminists are so mean, you hate guys for flirting!!" Bullshit. Flirting : harassing :: sex : rape. The line between flirting and harassing is as simple and clear as the line between sex and rape, because it's that line of DOES THE OTHER PERSON WANT THIS CONTACT. If you give somebody an appreciative look and she responds favorably, that's called "flirting." But if you "flirt" with a woman and she doesn't respond, or pulls away, or gives you a mean look, or otherwise makes it clear that she isn't interested in your flirting, then you stop. If you don't stop, then you're an asshole and a harasser, because you've decided that your desire to "flirt" with her is more important than the fact that she doesn't want your attention. Assholes like to make it seem like it is OH SO DIFFICULT to figure out this simple concept, to which I can only reply that if you are really that stupid then you shouldn't be out in public without an attendant who can make sure you don't walk into traffic or pee yourself in public.

I work in a female-heavy department. I'm one of three or four guys, compared to 15+ women. I face sexual harrassment from some of my co-workers on a regular basis; older women who think it's appropriate to call me sweetie or honey or put their hands on my shoulders or back while telling me how good I look. The experience is new to my new job and it has given me a different perspective on the sexual harrassment women face.

To the point, though, male business attire is a lot more defined than female business attire. Suit, dress shirt, tie. There's not a lot of variation, and there's not a lot different I could do to dress differently without violating the dress code. So, following the logic that is frequently put forth regarding women, it would stand to reason that it's partially my fault for being harrassed because I should know that some of these women are not going to be able to control themselves when I dress this way. But, I have no other way to dress.

I think that highlights the absurdity of the argument that women should just dress less slutty. Here I am, dressing as conservatively as you could probably imagine, and I get harrassed. Some of the women can control themselves, some cannot. Clearly, what clothing one wears has little to do with harrassment. It is not as if some men are just perfectly respectable towards women until they see a girl walk by in a mini skirt, then they can't control themselves and just have to impulsively harrass her. The type of people who are going to sexually harrass someone are going to do so regardless of how the person is dressed.

[Bottle]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

Of course I'm not offended by someone letting me know they think I look good, but let's not kid ourselves - that's not what we're talking about, not any of us, on either side.

We've got a group of posters here trying like hell to erase the line between OK behavior and Not-OK behavior, and put all the blame for harassment on the women who are the targets of it. If we follow their thinking, then we'd have to believe there is no such thing as harassment. There are only innocent men being lured by women who dress themselves up as bait only so we can then humiliate said men with false accusations dreamed up by hysterical females who hate all men. But any man who has ever gone on a date knows that's utter and complete bullshit and that women do not treat any attention as harassment. Period.

But that bullshit is part and parcel of the "blame the victim" game that has also them insisting that rape only happens because women don't dress right to prevent it -- that if we want to avoid bad things we should dress for the perverts of the world, and if we don't then we deserve what we get.

For serious. I'm really fucking sick of guys (and girls) assuming that women are absolute fucking morons.

There is a difference between giving a second look to somebody you find attractive, and staring/leering/harassing that person. It is very, very, very fucking easy to tell the difference.

"Oooh, you feminists are so mean, you hate guys for flirting!!" Bullshit. Flirting : harassing :: sex : rape. The line between flirting and harassing is as simple and clear as the line between sex and rape, because it's that line of DOES THE OTHER PERSON WANT THIS CONTACT. If you give somebody an appreciative look and she responds favorably, that's called "flirting." But if you "flirt" with a woman and she doesn't respond, or pulls away, or gives you a mean look, or otherwise makes it clear that she isn't interested in your flirting, then you stop. If you don't stop, then you're an asshole and a harasser, because you've decided that your desire to "flirt" with her is more important than the fact that she doesn't want your attention. Assholes like to make it seem like it is OH SO DIFFICULT to figure out this simple concept, to which I can only reply that if you are really that stupid then you shouldn't be out in public without an attendant who can make sure you don't walk into traffic or pee yourself in public.

I work in a female-heavy department. I'm one of three or four guys, compared to 15+ women. I face sexual harrassment from some of my co-workers on a regular basis; older women who think it's appropriate to call me sweetie or honey or put their hands on my shoulders or back while telling me how good I look. The experience is new to my new job and it has given me a different perspective on the sexual harrassment women face.

To the point, though, male business attire is a lot more defined than female business attire. Suit, dress shirt, tie. There's not a lot of variation, and there's not a lot different I could do to dress differently without violating the dress code. So, following the logic that is frequently put forth regarding women, it would stand to reason that it's partially my fault for being harrassed because I should know that some of these women are not going to be able to control themselves when I dress this way. But, I have no other way to dress.

I think that highlights the absurdity of the argument that women should just dress less slutty. Here I am, dressing as conservatively as you could probably imagine, and I get harrassed. Some of the women can control themselves, some cannot. Clearly, what clothing one wears has little to do with harrassment. It is not as if some men are just perfectly respectable towards women until they see a girl walk by in a mini skirt, then they can't control themselves and just have to impulsively harrass her. The type of people who are going to sexually harrass someone are going to do so regardless of how the person is dressed.

Exactly.

Some people harass because they intentionally want to scare or hurt others (yes, this happens, and is extremely common). Other people harass because they don't give a shit if their behavior makes somebody else uncomfortable (this is even more common). Still others harass because they think their feelings are the only ones that matter, and since THEY think they are paying somebody a compliment then that makes it a compliment, even if the other person absolutely hates what they are doing (also very very common).

All of these people are assholes, but the ones that piss me off the most are the last group, because they are the ones who will invariably try to defend their actions by insisting that their victim is the one who is wrong for "getting all upset" or "being too sensitive." Shit just fucking annoys me.

[Nobel Hobos]

Exactly.

"Exactly" you say, yet you respond only to the last sentence of Sdaeriji's post.

[Muravyets]

Exactly.

"Exactly" you say, yet you respond only to the last sentence of Sdaeriji's post.

Are you a mind reader, that you know which parts she was responding to and which parts she was ignoring? I was about to post the exact same "Exactly!" in response to Sdaeriji, because I agree with every word of his post.

[Father motherland]

If women wanted to be sexually abused why wouldnt they just be prostituets and get payed for it????

[Bottle]

Exactly.

"Exactly" you say, yet you respond only to the last sentence of Sdaeriji's post.

Not sure why you assume that, or what your point is in saying this. If you think there's something else I should have said, then you could maybe tell me what and why?

[Bottle]

Exactly.

"Exactly" you say, yet you respond only to the last sentence of Sdaeriji's post.

Are you a mind reader, that you know which parts she was responding to and which parts she was ignoring? I was about to post the exact same "Exactly!" in response to Sdaeriji, because I agree with every word of his post.

For the record, I wasn't ignoring any part of that post. If I had been ignoring parts of it, I wouldn't have quoted the whole thing and said "Exactly." The fact that I didn't respond to each sentence individually is simply a reflection of the fact that I didn't have anything in particular to add to each sentence.

[Geniasis]

Not sure why you assume that, or what your point is in saying this. If you think there's something else I should have said, then you could maybe tell me what and why?

Apparently you were supposed to talk about how sexual harassment doesn't happen to men or something. I dunno. I literally have no idea what else could possibly have been said.

[The Adrian Empire]

Does it help to dress provocatively and act less then modestly? No.

Does that mean they are asking for it when they are sexually abused or harrassed? Hell NO! WHAT THE [insert less vulgar but still colourful explective], of course not. In fact I think the assumption that women are "asking for it" is as much insulting to men as it is to women, because obviously we men just can't control ourselves around a pretty girl in skimpy clothing, they obviously know that so they must be "looking" to be abused sexually. It's sick. Sure, we could explore the obvious logic that when people are more and more open to sexual explicitness then sexual depravity is sure to tag-along, but blaming the victim, is nothing short of disgusting.

[Ryadn]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

Of course I'm not offended by someone letting me know they think I look good, but let's not kid ourselves - that's not what we're talking about, not any of us, on either side.

We've got a group of posters here trying like hell to erase the line between OK behavior and Not-OK behavior, and put all the blame for harassment on the women who are the targets of it. If we follow their thinking, then we'd have to believe there is no such thing as harassment. There are only innocent men being lured by women who dress themselves up as bait only so we can then humiliate said men with false accusations dreamed up by hysterical females who hate all men. But any man who has ever gone on a date knows that's utter and complete bullshit and that women do not treat any attention as harassment. Period.

But that bullshit is part and parcel of the "blame the victim" game that has also them insisting that rape only happens because women don't dress right to prevent it -- that if we want to avoid bad things we should dress for the perverts of the world, and if we don't then we deserve what we get.

Oh, I realize that's not what the thread's about at all. I was exploring what Bottle said and trying to decide if my attitude is sexist (just because this is the internet, please let me state here that this is not sarcastic at all---I really am interested in examining my attitudes toward women). I very much have a "if your cleavage is exposed and in my line of sight, I have a right to look until you make it obvious that you don't want me to look" attitude, and maybe that isn't fair.

In other words, the actual thread topic is so moronic and depressingly obvious that I'm trying to talk over it, because I don't know how much more misogyny I can take.

[Holy Paradise]

You read the question, allow me to elaborate.

It is the thought of many that younger girls who dress scantily and provocatively are inviting harrassment and other unwanted contact upon them. In other words, if the girls didn't dress this way, they wouldn't find themself in that predicament. The same could also be said about their carriage, if them acted decently, modestly, no unwanted contact would be thrust upon them either.

Thoughts NSG? I reckon these theories have merit, but certainly aren't the answer.

Actually, from what I've gathered, while rape may partially be motivated by sexual desire, it is mostly due to a desire for dominance and control over a person. Therefore, it often does not matter how a woman is dressed.

Source: http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0022-3514.55.5.795

[Hayteria]

Threads like this are what bothers me so much about NSG. First you have people saying that the girl is to be blamed for getting raped and then you have people who seem to be saying that any male-initiated flirtation is harassment and the sad part is that they're not even the extremists.

Where does anyone talk about flirtation?

Flirtation is "Wow, I looked over here and can't believe how gorgeous the sun is in your hair..." or something innocuous... not "HEY BABY WANNA FUCK YOU KNOW YOU WANNA!" and throwing her to the floor.

If you think that people are talking about a guy initiating a conversation and trying to get to know a person better, your views on proper dating techniques or your reading comprehension seem to be very skewed.

I wonder where you would classify something like commenting specifically on her titties.

[Muravyets]

Obviously if they were "asking for it" they would have consented in the first place, and it wouldn't have been rape or harassment, and at a less literal level, it doesn't justify rape or harassment either...

Though for what it's worth, dressing all tantalizingly and then dismissing concerns about how guys may feel about it with the "I don't have to justify how I dress" mantra does seem to reflect poorly on either the morality or the kindness of girls who do so...

The objection I have to the second sentence (and, to some extent, to what Ry said above) is that "dressing tantalizingly" often looks precisely the same as "dressing comfortably."

For instance, I like wearing shorts and tank tops in summer, because it's hot out and I live in a fucking swamp (stupid DC weather). I don't wear "revealing clothing" because I want attention, I wear it because it's a fuckton more comfortable than covering up. But because I am female, my choice of clothing will ALWAYS be perceived as part of a display, and as a reflection of how much attention I want to get. Women are supposed to choose how we dress based on how we want (heterosexual male) people to respond to us, so that's how our choices get interpreted.

Personally, I think it's stupid to assume that somebody has dressed a certain way because they want your attention. Feel free to ASK them if you are curious, but never assume that anybody picked out their wardrobe because they want you to stare at them.

As I said before, we live in a world where there's nun porn. I am not going to waste my life trying to dress to anticipate how any random perv who might be out on the streets is going to interpret my wardrobe choices. I dress for the weather and the occasion, and NOT out of fear that someone who I don't even know exists might find my jeans "tantalizing," whether they're the tight ones or the baggy, paint-spattered ones.

But are you offended if someone finds you attractive in them and eyes you? I'm not talking staring or leering, but... maybe I'm just not in control of my hormones, but when someone walks by looking good, I look. I have been known to walk into poles.

Of course I'm not offended by someone letting me know they think I look good, but let's not kid ourselves - that's not what we're talking about, not any of us, on either side.

We've got a group of posters here trying like hell to erase the line between OK behavior and Not-OK behavior, and put all the blame for harassment on the women who are the targets of it. If we follow their thinking, then we'd have to believe there is no such thing as harassment. There are only innocent men being lured by women who dress themselves up as bait only so we can then humiliate said men with false accusations dreamed up by hysterical females who hate all men. But any man who has ever gone on a date knows that's utter and complete bullshit and that women do not treat any attention as harassment. Period.

But that bullshit is part and parcel of the "blame the victim" game that has also them insisting that rape only happens because women don't dress right to prevent it -- that if we want to avoid bad things we should dress for the perverts of the world, and if we don't then we deserve what we get.

Oh, I realize that's not what the thread's about at all. I was exploring what Bottle said and trying to decide if my attitude is sexist (just because this is the internet, please let me state here that this is not sarcastic at all---I really am interested in examining my attitudes toward women). I very much have a "if your cleavage is exposed and in my line of sight, I have a right to look until you make it obvious that you don't want me to look" attitude, and maybe that isn't fair.

In other words, the actual thread topic is so moronic and depressingly obvious that I'm trying to talk over it, because I don't know how much more misogyny I can take.

Well, yeah, I can understand that.

[UNIverseVERSE]

It was pretty bad. The worst part was the guy absolutely knew how stunning he was (part or all Native, hair to his collarbones, perfect complexion, high cheekbones--jesus). Actually, it may have been a garbage can I walked into. I don't think that makes it less embarrassing. :/

Well, at least if you walked into a Pole they might have been cute as well.

Oh, is that not what you meant?

[Dimoniquid]

You can't get me to be impartial on this one; I'm a misogynist.

WOMEN SUCK.

Only if you're lucky.

Lololololol

[Zions Rebel Court]

I think its more the mens fault than the womans. She can lead him on but if she doesn't want to be harassed she tells the men harassing her. If they don't stop, it's all the mens fault.

[Omnixion]

I honestly agree with this. While some guys harass women regardless of how they dress, many women do dress like they are willfully asking to be harassed/assaulted.