Do women ask to be sexually harrassed/assaulted?

[East Canuck]

1. Woman dresses provocatively (but she doesn't want to arouse men!)
2. Man can't help himself, decides to get verbal or touchy
3. IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

That situation is equal to the following:

1. Offer cookie to dog (but you don't want the dog to eat the cookie!)
2. Dog can't help himself, decides to eat the cookie
3. IT'S THE DOG'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

So men have the same level of control as dogs?

yes.

well most

Well that is conductive to a good debate. Let's alienate 49% of the population! (More if you consider this is an internet forum and that there are no girls on the internet)

[Ermarian]

No, these have no merit whatsoever. The idea of blaming the victim is idiotic.

1. Woman dresses provocatively (but she doesn't want to arouse men!)
2. Man can't help himself, decides to get verbal or touchy
3. IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

That situation is equal to the following:

1. Offer cookie to dog (but you don't want the dog to eat the cookie!)
2. Dog can't help himself, decides to eat the cookie
3. IT'S THE DOG'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

It is hard to decide which makes you more of an offensive sexist: To compare men to dogs, or women to confectionery.

[Ifreann]

I agree with the OP. Most of the time those kinds of girls are fine with unwanted advancements, because there skanks. But I believe those aren't the only kind of girls being raped.

You must be some monk who's never made any form of alteration, from clothing to haircuts, in order to attract anyone.

If there is anything a man can do other than grooming, bathing, and excersize to be attractive, tell me. most of the men's sexy fashions make you look stupid, not attractive. it's all down to old fashion skill: I've seen women go for rather tame-seeming guys as well as the latest odd-hair look, after all. if she's gunning for action, what are her limits, really?

Women have the real estate, but guys must still be businessmen. If they are sleazy businessmen, expect them to pick up low-value property, thassall...

/tangent

Because women never want to have sex, and men have to use their 'skills' and be 'businessmen' to trick them into agreeing to it. Women never pursue men, ever.

[East Canuck]

Sure, equal rights, etc etc, but the fact that one can commit rape, blame the victim, and people will actually consider this a possible defense is just terrible, and a horrid backwards step in civilization.

Backwards from...

Considering in the past hundred or two hundred years, as you said, women gained so much in terms of freedom and rights. It seems a step back, don't you think?

The "She asked for it what with this dress..." defense is rather a constant in the history of human rights.

[Ceannairceach]

No one is blamming the victim. I just sometimes wonder if people take responsibilty for themselves sometimes. If you weren't at that party with kids 5 years older than you doing drugs, do you think you would have been raped.

Wait. Who's to say their at parties, doing drugs, etc? I happen to know several young women, and men in some cases, who, in many people's moral values, dress like "skanks", yet they don't party with druggies, nor do they partake themselves. Does this mean they would be held responsible for their CLOTHES if they were raped?

[Barringtonia]

No one is blamming the victim. I just sometimes wonder if people take responsibilty for themselves sometimes. If you weren't at that party with kids 5 years older than you doing drugs, do you think you would have been raped.

This whole 'responsibility for oneself' argument ignores the fact that not every choice is equal, that there are societal and positional effects that limit one's choice and therefore one's decisions.

As far as I can tell it stems from some liability avoidance by powerful interests that seek to excuse themselves from blame from their own decisions, regardless of whether it's financial, concerned with the production of food and even, in this case, as to the responsibility of those who rape - it seems some people would prefer a return to nun-hood and, even then, would still find some means of blaming the victim over the assaulter.

[Lunas Verde]

No one is blamming the victim. I just sometimes wonder if people take responsibilty for themselves sometimes. If you weren't at that party with kids 5 years older than you doing drugs, do you think you would have been raped.

Allow me to draw a parallel situation.
A businessman is walking to his car after a late night at the office. He's wearing a suit and a fancy watch, and clearly is more well-off than most. A random passerby decides to relieve him of said watch. Would it be the businessman's fault that he was robbed because he knowingly was out at night and richly dressed?

[Farnhamia]

I agree with the OP. Most of the time those kinds of girls are fine with unwanted advancements, because there skanks. But I believe those aren't the only kind of girls being raped.

So it's okay to rape skanks because, well, they're skanks and they really want it anyway? Just trying to be clear.

Of course it's not okay. But I think people have to take responsiblity for whaat they wear and how they act. They need to realize there more likely to get raped if they dress like a whore, wear 2 pounds of makeup, and act suggestive. They (or there parents, if there minors) need to be responsible for themselves.

If a woman dresses up to be attractive ("like a whore") and is flirtatious ("acts suggestive") does not mean she's not being responsible. Maye, being an adult, she just wants to get laid.

Certainly parents should raise their children properly, both the boys and the girls.

[Barringtonia]

Women have the real estate, but guys must still be businessmen. If they are sleazy businessmen, expect them to pick up low-value property, thassall...

/tangent

Your choice of words is almost ironic, women were historically seen as little more than chattel, you seem to continue to subscribe to that view.

[Horsefish]

No one is blamming the victim. I just sometimes wonder if people take responsibilty for themselves sometimes. If you weren't at that party with kids 5 years older than you doing drugs, do you think you would have been raped.

Wait. Who's to say their at parties, doing drugs, etc? I happen to know several young women, and men in some cases, who, in many people's moral values, dress like "skanks", yet they don't party with druggies, nor do they partake themselves. Does this mean they would be held responsible for their CLOTHES if they were raped?

And even if someone goes out and gets stoned with someone 5 years older than her, does that mean he all of a sudden is responsible for his own actions?
"Did you rape this women?"
"Oh no officer she came out with me, smoked some spliffs and passed out so she was obviously asking for it."

That would go down really well.

[Sazo]

1. Woman dresses provocatively (but she doesn't want to arouse men!)
2. Man can't help himself, decides to get verbal or touchy
3. IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

That situation is equal to the following:

1. Offer cookie to dog (but you don't want the dog to eat the cookie!)
2. Dog can't help himself, decides to eat the cookie
3. IT'S THE DOG'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

So men have the same level of control as dogs?

yes.

well some

Well that is conductive to a good debate. Let's alienate 49% of the population! (More if you consider this is an internet forum and that there are no girls on the internet)

just ignore

[Farnhamia]

1. Woman dresses provocatively (but she doesn't want to arouse men!)
2. Man can't help himself, decides to get verbal or touchy
3. IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

That situation is equal to the following:

1. Offer cookie to dog (but you don't want the dog to eat the cookie!)
2. Dog can't help himself, decides to eat the cookie
3. IT'S THE DOG'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

So men have the same level of control as dogs?

yes.

well some

Well that is conductive to a good debate. Let's alienate 49% of the population! (More if you consider this is an internet forum and that there are no girls on the internet)

i am a guy. and i think some guys have the level control of dogs.

(and that really is not a bad thing dogs have a great level of control)

Yeah ... what? Once more, please, in English?

[Sazo]

men are more likely to touch a women inappropiately like women are more likely to buy shoes or clothes.

i dont like this thread so i think i will stay in f7.

[Ifreann]

i dont like this thread so i think i will stay in f7.

Please do.

[Bottle]

I agree with the OP. Most of the time those kinds of girls are fine with unwanted advancements, because there skanks. But I believe those aren't the only kind of girls being raped.

You must be some monk who's never made any form of alteration, from clothing to haircuts, in order to attract anyone.

If there is anything a man can do other than grooming, bathing, and excersize to be attractive, tell me. most of the men's sexy fashions make you look stupid, not attractive. it's all down to old fashion skill: I've seen women go for rather tame-seeming guys as well as the latest odd-hair look, after all. if she's gunning for action, what are her limits, really?

Women have the real estate, but guys must still be businessmen. If they are sleazy businessmen, expect them to pick up low-value property, thassall...

/tangent

There are plenty of things men can do to be attractive to women. However, most of them will be a waste of your time if you continue to ooze sexism and contempt for women (and especially women's sexuality) the way that you do. Women pick up on those attitudes very easily, you see, so it really won't matter how nicely you are dressed or how great your hair is...you'll still be rejected by most women because they simply aren't interested in fucking a guy who views them as a property he wishes to acquire.

[The Cat-Tribe]

You read the question, allow me to elaborate.

It is the thought of many that younger girls who dress scantily and provocatively are inviting harrassment and other unwanted contact upon them. In other words, if the girls didn't dress this way, they wouldn't find themself in that predicament. The same could also be said about their carriage, if them acted decently, modestly, no unwanted contact would be thrust upon them either.

Thoughts NSG? I reckon these theories have merit, but certainly aren't the answer.

Reading the OP makes me want to vomit.

Reading the first few post -- including by Zephie -- makes me have some hope for NSG.

I will not read the rest of the thread for fear that hope will be crushed and I will, in fact, vomit repeatedly and perhaps be so disgusted as to leave NSG for a while.

I'm sure Bottle and others have this nonsense well in hand.

[Tokos]

There are plenty of things men can do to be attractive to women. However, most of them will be a waste of your time if you continue to ooze sexism and contempt for women (and especially women's sexuality) the way that you do. Women pick up on those attitudes very easily, you see, so it really won't matter how nicely you are dressed or how great your hair is...you'll still be rejected by most women because they simply aren't interested in fucking a guy who views them as a property he wishes to acquire.

Not necessarily. Bitterness and anger toward women certainly doesn't get anyone very far; a certain level of arrogance and treating her like a silly little kid do work well on a lot of women. It might vary by age of course, but the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype has its roots in reality.

[Bottle]

There are plenty of things men can do to be attractive to women. However, most of them will be a waste of your time if you continue to ooze sexism and contempt for women (and especially women's sexuality) the way that you do. Women pick up on those attitudes very easily, you see, so it really won't matter how nicely you are dressed or how great your hair is...you'll still be rejected by most women because they simply aren't interested in fucking a guy who views them as a property he wishes to acquire.

Not necessarily. Bitterness and anger toward women certainly doesn't get anyone very far; a certain level of arrogance and treating her like a silly little kid do work well on a lot of women. It might vary by age of course, but the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype has its roots in reality.

I hear this a lot, but oddly enough I tend to hear it most often from guys who are dripping with bitterness toward women, and don't sound like they are having a lot of romantic success.

In my experience, the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype is mostly rooted in the (understandable) tendency to classify a guy as a jerk if he gets the girl and you don't.

[Illithar]

There are plenty of things men can do to be attractive to women. However, most of them will be a waste of your time if you continue to ooze sexism and contempt for women (and especially women's sexuality) the way that you do. Women pick up on those attitudes very easily, you see, so it really won't matter how nicely you are dressed or how great your hair is...you'll still be rejected by most women because they simply aren't interested in fucking a guy who views them as a property he wishes to acquire.

Not necessarily. Bitterness and anger toward women certainly doesn't get anyone very far; a certain level of arrogance and treating her like a silly little kid do work well on a lot of women. It might vary by age of course, but the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype has its roots in reality.

I hear this a lot, but oddly enough I tend to hear it most often from guys who are dripping with bitterness toward women, and don't sound like they are having a lot of romantic success.

In my experience, the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype is mostly rooted in the (understandable) tendency to classify a guy as a jerk if he gets the girl and you don't.

While I really, really hate to agree with Tokos, I have to on this one. In my experiance, a lot of women tend to date jerks. Granted, not for the reasons Tokos thinks. As was explained to me, the girls who date jerks don't actually like the jerk, but he represents a 'dark side', 'rebellion', 'forbidden fruit' type deal and a lot of girls (especially teenagers) mistake chaos and danger for excitement, which they mistake for passion in the romance, which they then mistake for love.

So...chick's don't dig jerks, but a lot of them date jerks.

[New Caldaris]

You read the question, allow me to elaborate.

It is the thought of many that younger girls who dress scantily and provocatively are inviting harrassment and other unwanted contact upon them. In other words, if the girls didn't dress this way, they wouldn't find themself in that predicament. The same could also be said about their carriage, if them acted decently, modestly, no unwanted contact would be thrust upon them either.

Thoughts NSG? I reckon these theories have merit, but certainly aren't the answer.

Are men children, completely incapable of controlling their behavior?

Is that really a question or more of a statement?

[Bottle]

There are plenty of things men can do to be attractive to women. However, most of them will be a waste of your time if you continue to ooze sexism and contempt for women (and especially women's sexuality) the way that you do. Women pick up on those attitudes very easily, you see, so it really won't matter how nicely you are dressed or how great your hair is...you'll still be rejected by most women because they simply aren't interested in fucking a guy who views them as a property he wishes to acquire.

Not necessarily. Bitterness and anger toward women certainly doesn't get anyone very far; a certain level of arrogance and treating her like a silly little kid do work well on a lot of women. It might vary by age of course, but the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype has its roots in reality.

I hear this a lot, but oddly enough I tend to hear it most often from guys who are dripping with bitterness toward women, and don't sound like they are having a lot of romantic success.

In my experience, the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype is mostly rooted in the (understandable) tendency to classify a guy as a jerk if he gets the girl and you don't.

While I really, really hate to agree with Tokos, I have to on this one. In my experiance, a lot of women tend to date jerks. Granted, not for the reasons Tokos thinks. As was explained to me, the girls who date jerks don't actually like the jerk, but he represents a 'dark side', 'rebellion', 'forbidden fruit' type deal and a lot of girls (especially teenagers) mistake chaos and danger for excitement, which they mistake for passion in the romance, which they then mistake for love.

So...chick's don't dig jerks, but a lot of them date jerks.

Yeah, again, I hear this a lot, and I just don't see it. If folks have any objective evidence that women typically date jerks, or that women are more likely to date jerks than men, then go ahead and present it, but I haven't seen much truth to the stereotype. EVERYONE, male or female, tends to go through a few "jerks" in the course of their dating life, but that's because everyone also tends to go through a period in which they themselves are the jerk.

[Sdaeriji]

There are plenty of things men can do to be attractive to women. However, most of them will be a waste of your time if you continue to ooze sexism and contempt for women (and especially women's sexuality) the way that you do. Women pick up on those attitudes very easily, you see, so it really won't matter how nicely you are dressed or how great your hair is...you'll still be rejected by most women because they simply aren't interested in fucking a guy who views them as a property he wishes to acquire.

Not necessarily. Bitterness and anger toward women certainly doesn't get anyone very far; a certain level of arrogance and treating her like a silly little kid do work well on a lot of women. It might vary by age of course, but the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype has its roots in reality.

I hear this a lot, but oddly enough I tend to hear it most often from guys who are dripping with bitterness toward women, and don't sound like they are having a lot of romantic success.

In my experience, the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype is mostly rooted in the (understandable) tendency to classify a guy as a jerk if he gets the girl and you don't.

Men who are not self-confident tend to perceive a self-confident man as a jerk.

[Crabcake Baba Ganoush]

They do, at least in some of the hentai films that I have...but that's another story all together.

Anyways, getting back on topic, assuming that I was even there to begin with...which I obviously wasn't. There is an element of risk that they should be aware of for dressing up scantily, especially if they're going out to certain locations. Not that they are necessarily responsible for the behavior of others, unless they actually did something to instigate the matter. Still, they should at least be aware of the risks.

[Tokos]

I hear this a lot, but oddly enough I tend to hear it most often from guys who are dripping with bitterness toward women, and don't sound like they are having a lot of romantic success.

In my experience, the "chicks dig jerks" stereotype is mostly rooted in the (understandable) tendency to classify a guy as a jerk if he gets the girl and you don't.

This is true, but these people are often bitter because they hear the whole "You're great as a friend" thing from girls who cry on their shoulder about how mean their boyfriend is and how they wish there "more nice men in the world like you". While said nice guy wonders what he's doing wrong. I think, but can't prove, that it's to do with strength and confidence and potential danger being attractive traits. Being nice and considerate communicates none of that and can often communicate neediness and clinginess, so isn't exactly going to result in attraction.

I'm not bitter but I have been in the nice-guy zone before. Once you realise what's going on, which men have a real problem understanding for some reason, it's counterproductive to be bitter any more than it is for a plain girl to be angry that men are more viscerally attracted to her friend with the hypnotic boobs.

While I really, really hate to agree with Tokos, I have to on this one. In my experiance, a lot of women tend to date jerks. Granted, not for the reasons Tokos thinks. As was explained to me, the girls who date jerks don't actually like the jerk, but he represents a 'dark side', 'rebellion', 'forbidden fruit' type deal and a lot of girls (especially teenagers) mistake chaos and danger for excitement, which they mistake for passion in the romance, which they then mistake for love.

So...chick's don't dig jerks, but a lot of them date jerks.

I wasn't referring to actual jerks but more the stereotype which has a basis in reality. I suppose you could put it this way: The man who is with an annoying girl who nevertheless has a great body and cute eyes doesn't necessarily like her, but he's still attracted to her.

Anyways, getting back on topic, assuming that I was even there to begin with...which I obviously wasn't. There is an element of risk that they should be aware of for dressing up scantily, especially if they're going out to certain locations. Not that they are necessarily responsible for the behavior of others, unless they actually did something to instigate the matter. Still, they should at least be aware of the risks.

I think the businessman/jewellery example is the best. And "deserve" is really the wrong word for any situation like this.

[Bottle]

They do, at least in some of the hentai films that I have...but that's another story all together.

Anyways, getting back on topic, assuming that I was even there to begin with...which I obviously wasn't. There is an element of risk that they should be aware of for dressing up scantily, especially if they're going out to certain locations. Not that they are necessarily responsible for the behavior of others, unless they actually did something to instigate the matter. Still, they should at least be aware of the risks.

For the billionth time:

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT DRESSING "SEXY" INCREASES A WOMAN'S ODDS OF BEING RAPED.

So why should women be "aware of the risks" that don't actually exist? Statistically speaking, it is far "riskier" for a woman to be over at a friend's house than it is for her to be drinking in a bar alone. It is riskier for a woman to be alone with a male coworker or friend than it is for her to put on a miniskirt and go dancing at the club. Why should women be "aware of the risks" of behaviors that are statistically LESS LIKELY to result in rape?

Please knock it the fuck off, people. You are telling lies and perpetuating myths that HURT WOMEN and ENABLE RAPISTS. You are helping rapists. Be very clear on that: You are helping rapists. Do you want to help rapists? If you don't, then stop helping rapists. It's pretty fucking simple.