Do women ask to be sexually harrassed/assaulted?

[Norstal]

Speaking from personal experience, I've been harassed while wearing a heavy winter coat. I've been harassed while wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I've been harassed while wearing sweats and blowing snot into a hanky while I staggered to the corner store for some Nyquil. I've been harassed while dressed up for a business meeting. I've been harassed while in a group, harassed while alone, harassed while drunk, harassed while sober. I've been harassed if I acknowledged a guy (like if I smiled or waved) and I've been harassed if I didn't (like if I just walked past without doing anything). I've been harassed if I was smiling, and harassed when I was crying.

Very Dr. Seuss.

That doesn't rhyme silly.

[Bottle]

I WILL say that by dressing provocatively, she is asking for attention, but she is not asking for more than glances and needs nothing more than that without HER permission.

Well, going over and saying hi wouldn't be harassment. JUST glances is a bit muc.

You know, something occurs to me.

I live in DC right now, and there are a significant number of wounded veterans who live or work in the area. The grownups around me all seem quite able to refrain from staring rudely at these wounded folks, even when there's a guy missing both legs, or a gal who doesn't have her arm below the elbow. People realize that it's fucking rude to stare and point and otherwise make an ass of yourself, so they refrain from doing so.

My "instinct" when I see a legless man is to stare. It's out of the ordinary, and the impulse is to look and examine. But I know that's fucking rude, so I don't do it, because I know it will probably make him uncomfortable. Yes, I have the "right" to be an asshole and stare at the legless man, but why would I want to harsh his mellow? Why would I want to make him feel bad, feel singled-out, feel like he wishes he hadn't left the house today? Should I tell him it's his fault for not covering his legs with a blanket? Should I tell him it's his fault for not wearing prostheses?

I'm capable of controlling my impulse to stare. In my opinion, any guy who claims to be unable to control HIS impulse to stare should be denied the right to a driver's license, since his eye problems represent a clear danger to the public.

[Tokos]

Who said anything about staring? Are you replying to what me and the other guy said or is this a new point

[Geniasis]

My "instinct" when I see a legless man is to stare. It's out of the ordinary, and the impulse is to look and examine. But I know that's fucking rude, so I don't do it, because I know it will probably make him uncomfortable. Yes, I have the "right" to be an asshole and stare at the legless man, but why would I want to harsh his mellow? Why would I want to make him feel bad, feel singled-out, feel like he wishes he hadn't left the house today? Should I tell him it's his fault for not covering his legs with a blanket? Should I tell him it's his fault for not wearing prostheses?

I'm capable of controlling my impulse to stare. In my opinion, any guy who claims to be unable to control HIS impulse to stare should be denied the right to a driver's license, since his eye problems represent a clear danger to the public.

That's different. You're not a mutant dog-tiger-toaster-shark-fish cyborg thing. Your morals don't apply here!

[Bottle]

Speaking from personal experience, I've been harassed while wearing a heavy winter coat. I've been harassed while wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I've been harassed while wearing sweats and blowing snot into a hanky while I staggered to the corner store for some Nyquil. I've been harassed while dressed up for a business meeting. I've been harassed while in a group, harassed while alone, harassed while drunk, harassed while sober. I've been harassed if I acknowledged a guy (like if I smiled or waved) and I've been harassed if I didn't (like if I just walked past without doing anything). I've been harassed if I was smiling, and harassed when I was crying.

Very Dr. Seuss.

I do not like Harassing Man
I do not like him, Sam I Am.

I do not like him on the train
I do not like him in the rain
I do not like him in my abode
I do not like him, he's a chode.

Would I, could I, hate his guts?
Would I, could I, kick his nuts?
I will not hit him, that's a crime
I would not, could not, well just one time...

[NERVUN]

Speaking from personal experience, I've been harassed while wearing a heavy winter coat. I've been harassed while wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I've been harassed while wearing sweats and blowing snot into a hanky while I staggered to the corner store for some Nyquil. I've been harassed while dressed up for a business meeting. I've been harassed while in a group, harassed while alone, harassed while drunk, harassed while sober. I've been harassed if I acknowledged a guy (like if I smiled or waved) and I've been harassed if I didn't (like if I just walked past without doing anything). I've been harassed if I was smiling, and harassed when I was crying.

Very Dr. Seuss.

I do not like Harassing Man
I do not like him, Sam I Am.

I do not like him on the train
I do not like him in the rain
I do not like him in my abode
I do not like him, he's a chode.

Would I, could I, hate his guts?
Would I, could I, kick his nuts?
I will not hit him, that's a crime
I would not, could not, well just one time...

Great Bottle, just great. YOU get to come over to Japan and explain to my son why his father started cracking up tonight during his nightly reading of Green Eggs and Ham.

[Pickled Tinkistan]

You read the question, allow me to elaborate.

It is the thought of many that younger girls who dress scantily and provocatively are inviting harrassment and other unwanted contact upon them. In other words, if the girls didn't dress this way, they wouldn't find themself in that predicament. The same could also be said about their carriage, if them acted decently, modestly, no unwanted contact would be thrust upon them either.

Thoughts NSG? I reckon these theories have merit, but certainly aren't the answer.

If this were even remotely true then there would be no rape in Islamic nations where women are required to wear the niqab or burqa. Since there is still rape in those nations, the premise is flawed (We'll set aside the fact that the women there are subsequently killed for adultury as irrelevant for this thread).

If a man lacks the control to keep it in his pants it is his fault. The only person responsible for the actions of an individual assuming the persons judgement has not been impaired by narcotics or illness is the individual him or her self. Since neither of these come into play, the two exceptions can be discarded and the long argument and discussion about such things can be avoided, as can the sticky issue of duress.

Trying to blame others for your lack of control is a typical ploy used by those who are unwilling to accept the fact that they made a concious choice to perform an act.

As such I am both shocked and appalled that such a topic on this subject has reached 12 pages.

[Bottle]

Speaking from personal experience, I've been harassed while wearing a heavy winter coat. I've been harassed while wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I've been harassed while wearing sweats and blowing snot into a hanky while I staggered to the corner store for some Nyquil. I've been harassed while dressed up for a business meeting. I've been harassed while in a group, harassed while alone, harassed while drunk, harassed while sober. I've been harassed if I acknowledged a guy (like if I smiled or waved) and I've been harassed if I didn't (like if I just walked past without doing anything). I've been harassed if I was smiling, and harassed when I was crying.

Very Dr. Seuss.

I do not like Harassing Man
I do not like him, Sam I Am.

I do not like him on the train
I do not like him in the rain
I do not like him in my abode
I do not like him, he's a chode.

Would I, could I, hate his guts?
Would I, could I, kick his nuts?
I will not hit him, that's a crime
I would not, could not, well just one time...

Great Bottle, just great. YOU get to come over to Japan and explain to my son why his father started cracking up tonight during his nightly reading of Green Eggs and Ham.

For my next trick, I will debunk Creationism in the style of If I Ran The Zoo!

[Grainne Ni Malley]

Speaking from personal experience, I've been harassed while wearing a heavy winter coat. I've been harassed while wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I've been harassed while wearing sweats and blowing snot into a hanky while I staggered to the corner store for some Nyquil. I've been harassed while dressed up for a business meeting. I've been harassed while in a group, harassed while alone, harassed while drunk, harassed while sober. I've been harassed if I acknowledged a guy (like if I smiled or waved) and I've been harassed if I didn't (like if I just walked past without doing anything). I've been harassed if I was smiling, and harassed when I was crying.

Very Dr. Seuss.

I do not like Harassing Man
I do not like him, Sam I Am.

I do not like him on the train
I do not like him in the rain
I do not like him in my abode
I do not like him, he's a chode.

Would I, could I, hate his guts?
Would I, could I, kick his nuts?
I will not hit him, that's a crime
I would not, could not, well just one time...

Great Bottle, just great. YOU get to come over to Japan and explain to my son why his father started cracking up tonight during his nightly reading of Green Eggs and Ham.

For my next trick, I will debunk Creationism in the style of If I Ran The Zoo!

Ooh, can you do something Shel Silverstein style? I promise to worship!

[Ifreann]

As such I am both shocked and appalled that such a topic on this subject has reached 12 pages.

Welcome to NSG. You'll see the same thread, effectively, pop up every few months.

[Pickled Tinkistan]

As such I am both shocked and appalled that such a topic on this subject has reached 12 pages.

Welcome to NSG. You'll see the same thread, effectively, pop up every few months.

No! NEVER!

That sound you are hearing is the last shred of faith I had in humanity burning

[Drachmar]

As such I am both shocked and appalled that such a topic on this subject has reached 12 pages.

Welcome to NSG. You'll see the same thread, effectively, pop up every few months.

No! NEVER!

That sound you are hearing is the last shred of faith I had in humanity burning

And you've only been here just over two months.

That's nearly a lifetime at NSG.

[Ifreann]

As such I am both shocked and appalled that such a topic on this subject has reached 12 pages.

Welcome to NSG. You'll see the same thread, effectively, pop up every few months.

No! NEVER!

That sound you are hearing is the last shred of faith I had in humanity burning

Yeah. Every time a rape story gets some attention online, and every now and then when people just feel like bringing it up, there'll be a thread on whether it's the victim's fault or not. You think your faith in humanity is gone now? You just wait.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As such I am both shocked and appalled that such a topic on this subject has reached 12 pages.

Welcome to NSG. You'll see the same thread, effectively, pop up every few months.

No! NEVER!

That sound you are hearing is the last shred of faith I had in humanity burning

Yeah. Every time a rape story gets some attention online, and every now and then when people just feel like bringing it up, there'll be a thread on whether it's the victim's fault or not. You think your faith in humanity is gone now? You just wait.

I've been here 3 years, almost, and I still have faith this topic and others won't resurface again. I know it will, but I still hope! So do not crush my innocence, you big, big, bully!!!

*runs away, sobbing*

[American Capitalist]

I have to wonder why people even think it's a good idea to say stupid things like this. Do they actually believe it? or are they really terrible trolls? Perhaps they're actually rapist themselves?

[Nazi Flower Power]

If the men who harass them didn't behave inappropriately, they wouldn't be harassed. What a concept!

This is the most sensible thing I have ever seen you post. Bravo, Zephie!

@ OP: Is it OK to harass a man who goes out in public with his shirt off (to jog or whatever)? Some guys are probably thinking "Hey, I wish women would come on to me when I went jogging." What if the woman doing the harassing is totally butt ugly? What if some lady twice your age and nasty-looking starts making obscene comments about you, putting her hands all over you, etc? Is that cool?

[Ryadn]

I WILL say that by dressing provocatively, she is asking for attention, but she is not asking for more than glances and needs nothing more than that without HER permission.

Well, going over and saying hi wouldn't be harassment. JUST glances is a bit muc.

You know, something occurs to me.

I live in DC right now, and there are a significant number of wounded veterans who live or work in the area. The grownups around me all seem quite able to refrain from staring rudely at these wounded folks, even when there's a guy missing both legs, or a gal who doesn't have her arm below the elbow. People realize that it's fucking rude to stare and point and otherwise make an ass of yourself, so they refrain from doing so.

My "instinct" when I see a legless man is to stare. It's out of the ordinary, and the impulse is to look and examine. But I know that's fucking rude, so I don't do it, because I know it will probably make him uncomfortable. Yes, I have the "right" to be an asshole and stare at the legless man, but why would I want to harsh his mellow? Why would I want to make him feel bad, feel singled-out, feel like he wishes he hadn't left the house today? Should I tell him it's his fault for not covering his legs with a blanket? Should I tell him it's his fault for not wearing prostheses?

I'm capable of controlling my impulse to stare. In my opinion, any guy who claims to be unable to control HIS impulse to stare should be denied the right to a driver's license, since his eye problems represent a clear danger to the public.

I have to disagree with this a little. Anyone who is deliberately showing off her/his body, and it applies equally to men and women from me, is likely to catch my eye, even if it's just to stare at how ridiculous her/his outfit is. To hijack an earlier example, a woman walking naked through the streets is not in any way responsible for or deserving of rape, but I WILL look. I'll stop looking, eventually---but if it's there to see, I see it.

To put it in the same terms as your example, the other day I went to a Giants game and a man with a prosthesis sat in front of me. As soon as I noticed I stopped looking, not in a pointed way, just in a "okay, moving along and being respectful" way, because I sure wouldn't want someone to stare at me like a freak. Later on, however, the game got exciting, and the man proceeded to unstrap his prosthetic leg, turn it upside down, and wave it in the air in rhythm with the "Let's Go Gi-ants" chants. I feel that this behavior merited staring, if for no other reason than that he was blocking my view of some of the game.

[Drachmar]

I WILL say that by dressing provocatively, she is asking for attention, but she is not asking for more than glances and needs nothing more than that without HER permission.

Well, going over and saying hi wouldn't be harassment. JUST glances is a bit muc.

You know, something occurs to me.

I live in DC right now, and there are a significant number of wounded veterans who live or work in the area. The grownups around me all seem quite able to refrain from staring rudely at these wounded folks, even when there's a guy missing both legs, or a gal who doesn't have her arm below the elbow. People realize that it's fucking rude to stare and point and otherwise make an ass of yourself, so they refrain from doing so.

My "instinct" when I see a legless man is to stare. It's out of the ordinary, and the impulse is to look and examine. But I know that's fucking rude, so I don't do it, because I know it will probably make him uncomfortable. Yes, I have the "right" to be an asshole and stare at the legless man, but why would I want to harsh his mellow? Why would I want to make him feel bad, feel singled-out, feel like he wishes he hadn't left the house today? Should I tell him it's his fault for not covering his legs with a blanket? Should I tell him it's his fault for not wearing prostheses?

I'm capable of controlling my impulse to stare. In my opinion, any guy who claims to be unable to control HIS impulse to stare should be denied the right to a driver's license, since his eye problems represent a clear danger to the public.

I have to disagree with this a little. Anyone who is deliberately showing off her/his body, and it applies equally to men and women from me, is likely to catch my eye, even if it's just to stare at how ridiculous her/his outfit is. To hijack an earlier example, a woman walking naked through the streets is not in any way responsible for or deserving of rape, but I WILL look. I'll stop looking, eventually---but if it's there to see, I see it.

To put it in the same terms as your example, the other day I went to a Giants game and a man with a prosthesis sat in front of me. As soon as I noticed I stopped looking, not in a pointed way, just in a "okay, moving along and being respectful" way, because I sure wouldn't want someone to stare at me like a freak. Later on, however, the game got exciting, and the man proceeded to unstrap his prosthetic leg, turn it upside down, and wave it in the air in rhythm with the "Let's Go Gi-ants" chants. I feel that this behavior merited staring, if for no other reason than that he was blocking my view of some of the game.

OMG, you went to a football game instead of a futbol game.

Somehow my image of you is tainted. Le' sigh.

[Ryadn]

I WILL say that by dressing provocatively, she is asking for attention, but she is not asking for more than glances and needs nothing more than that without HER permission.

Well, going over and saying hi wouldn't be harassment. JUST glances is a bit muc.

You know, something occurs to me.

I live in DC right now, and there are a significant number of wounded veterans who live or work in the area. The grownups around me all seem quite able to refrain from staring rudely at these wounded folks, even when there's a guy missing both legs, or a gal who doesn't have her arm below the elbow. People realize that it's fucking rude to stare and point and otherwise make an ass of yourself, so they refrain from doing so.

My "instinct" when I see a legless man is to stare. It's out of the ordinary, and the impulse is to look and examine. But I know that's fucking rude, so I don't do it, because I know it will probably make him uncomfortable. Yes, I have the "right" to be an asshole and stare at the legless man, but why would I want to harsh his mellow? Why would I want to make him feel bad, feel singled-out, feel like he wishes he hadn't left the house today? Should I tell him it's his fault for not covering his legs with a blanket? Should I tell him it's his fault for not wearing prostheses?

I'm capable of controlling my impulse to stare. In my opinion, any guy who claims to be unable to control HIS impulse to stare should be denied the right to a driver's license, since his eye problems represent a clear danger to the public.

I have to disagree with this a little. Anyone who is deliberately showing off her/his body, and it applies equally to men and women from me, is likely to catch my eye, even if it's just to stare at how ridiculous her/his outfit is. To hijack an earlier example, a woman walking naked through the streets is not in any way responsible for or deserving of rape, but I WILL look. I'll stop looking, eventually---but if it's there to see, I see it.

To put it in the same terms as your example, the other day I went to a Giants game and a man with a prosthesis sat in front of me. As soon as I noticed I stopped looking, not in a pointed way, just in a "okay, moving along and being respectful" way, because I sure wouldn't want someone to stare at me like a freak. Later on, however, the game got exciting, and the man proceeded to unstrap his prosthetic leg, turn it upside down, and wave it in the air in rhythm with the "Let's Go Gi-ants" chants. I feel that this behavior merited staring, if for no other reason than that he was blocking my view of some of the game.

OMG, you went to a football game instead of a futbol game.

Somehow my image of you is tainted. Le' sigh.

Ha! Did you think I was a Brit? I don't know if it makes it better or worse, but I actually went to a baseball game--SF Giants, not NY Giants.

[Katganistan]

I think we should allow some very modest harrassment. When I was young it was ok to call the secritary "cutie" and slap her behind if she did not move fast enough. Today this would result in a million dollar lawsuit.

I think we should allow some very modest harassment too, in which we knock down old people and laugh at their broken hips./sarcasm
What slapping me anywhere would certainly result in, in my case, is filing a charge of assault with the local police.

I think we should allow some very modest harrassment. When I was young it was ok to call the secritary "cutie" and slap her behind if she did not move fast enough. Today this would result in a million dollar lawsuit.

If you get to slap her behind without consent, she should be able to punch your balls without yours.

That would just be vicious.

Whereas treating a woman like a naughty child is only demeaning and therefore fine, right?

No, these have no merit whatsoever. The idea of blaming the victim is idiotic.

1. Woman dresses provocatively (but she doesn't want to arouse men!)
2. Man can't help himself, decides to get verbal or touchy
3. IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

That situation is equal to the following:

1. Offer cookie to dog (but you don't want the dog to eat the cookie!)
2. Dog can't help himself, decides to eat the cookie
3. IT'S THE DOG'S FAULT! ARREST HIM!

That you consider men unable to control themselves and use an analogy of them as being equal to a dog is sad.

It is thanks to our 'self control' that we do not molest a provocatively dressed woman the moment she walks by. Only in very rare cases can the man not control himself anymore. And that is completely the woman's fault. You KNOW men are attracted to the female body. I mean, seriously. If you're jumping off a mountain and you drop dead, are you going to blame the mountain for being so high? Of course not. It's YOU who jumped. It's YOU who dressed provocatively.

It's YOU who raped her.
Seriously, where does the man's abdication of blame come from?

Sorry. I can't control myself around shit arguments. It gets me all angry and I lose control and viciously assault the people who make them. It's your fault, really, for making such a shit argument.

You know what the Moderation team has to say about such an argument.....

[Geniasis]

I think we should allow some very modest harrassment. When I was young it was ok to call the secritary "cutie" and slap her behind if she did not move fast enough. Today this would result in a million dollar lawsuit.

I think we should allow some very modest harassment too, in which we knock down old people and laugh at their broken hips./sarcasm
What slapping me anywhere would certainly result in, in my case, is filing a charge of assault with the local police.

You should get behind the Geniasis Plan. In it, every time a woman has her ass slapped, she can punch the offender in the balls.

[Katganistan]

I'm leaving this thread because, frankly, nobody is even TRYING to refute my points. Instead, they put their fingers in their ears and shout "LALALALALALA LULZ MEN ARE DOGS LOLOLOL!!!111!!!1" If anyone wishes to continue this discussion on an intellectual level, you know, the way grown-ups do it, then by all means, don't hesitate to send me a telegram. Now, I know several of you are going to reply to this post and say something among the lines of "SEE WE WERE RIGHT HE RAN OFF LOLOLOLOL POWER TO THE WIMMINZ", and by all means, if this makes you happy, do so. Just know that you still have a lot to learn when it comes to debating, critical thinking, and respecting one another.

Love and kisses

The irony, it burns.

Some womans do dress too provocatively and calls for the harassment herself - but I dont say they deserve rape or something like it - but if she calls for harassment herself, she gets it. There is a difference from fashion and provocative behavior or provocative dress.

I absolutely agree.

'Cause when I'm sitting on the train in 98 degree heat, sweating out the weight of a small child from the humidity, in a tank top and short shorts because I don't think my body can take a core temperature of 105 degrees for longer than 8 hours, absolutely the only thought running through my head is "damn I wish that guy staring down my shirt would grab my tits!"

105 degrees? Are you from earth or mercury?

I've been in 105 degree weather.
Do remember that not everyone uses Celsius.... some of us use the Fahrenheit scale.

That would be about 40.6C.

[Katganistan]

Men are not gerbils. Adagar is a gerbil. Men are capable of understanding the difference between yes and no.

Proving that Adagar is not a true man.

Knock off the flaming.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

I WILL say that by dressing provocatively, she is asking for attention, but she is not asking for more than glances and needs nothing more than that without HER permission.

Well, going over and saying hi wouldn't be harassment. JUST glances is a bit muc.

You know, something occurs to me.

I live in DC right now, and there are a significant number of wounded veterans who live or work in the area. The grownups around me all seem quite able to refrain from staring rudely at these wounded folks, even when there's a guy missing both legs, or a gal who doesn't have her arm below the elbow. People realize that it's fucking rude to stare and point and otherwise make an ass of yourself, so they refrain from doing so.

My "instinct" when I see a legless man is to stare. It's out of the ordinary, and the impulse is to look and examine. But I know that's fucking rude, so I don't do it, because I know it will probably make him uncomfortable. Yes, I have the "right" to be an asshole and stare at the legless man, but why would I want to harsh his mellow? Why would I want to make him feel bad, feel singled-out, feel like he wishes he hadn't left the house today? Should I tell him it's his fault for not covering his legs with a blanket? Should I tell him it's his fault for not wearing prostheses?

I'm capable of controlling my impulse to stare. In my opinion, any guy who claims to be unable to control HIS impulse to stare should be denied the right to a driver's license, since his eye problems represent a clear danger to the public.

I have to disagree with this a little. Anyone who is deliberately showing off her/his body, and it applies equally to men and women from me, is likely to catch my eye, even if it's just to stare at how ridiculous her/his outfit is. To hijack an earlier example, a woman walking naked through the streets is not in any way responsible for or deserving of rape, but I WILL look. I'll stop looking, eventually---but if it's there to see, I see it.

To put it in the same terms as your example, the other day I went to a Giants game and a man with a prosthesis sat in front of me. As soon as I noticed I stopped looking, not in a pointed way, just in a "okay, moving along and being respectful" way, because I sure wouldn't want someone to stare at me like a freak. Later on, however, the game got exciting, and the man proceeded to unstrap his prosthetic leg, turn it upside down, and wave it in the air in rhythm with the "Let's Go Gi-ants" chants. I feel that this behavior merited staring, if for no other reason than that he was blocking my view of some of the game.

I had come home from work one night to find all the men in my apartment complex rushing off to Downtown Reno because, apparently, some attractive young lady was dancing around naked in front of the El Dorado. Not only was I fascinated by how quickly word had traveled, but I was also amused by the sudden haste with which these men organized and the enthusiasm with which they departed. It was as though they had never seen a naked woman before. I probably would have done the same if it were a naked man, though... or if I hadn't just come home from work. If only to revel in the bravery of said person displaying his or her nudity in such a public atmosphere.

I don't see a problem with looking even for prolonged periods, especially if one is intentionally drawing attention to one's self. It's when there is unwelcome physical contact, verbal harassment, or plain rudeness that the lines are crossed, IMO.

[Katganistan]

Now, if they dress like a skank and get raped in a church, then it's not their fault. If it happens in the wrong side of town, then yes, it is partially their own fault for dressing like a piece of meat.

You have to be kidding me.

Would you go into a tiger cage with steaks tied to your dick? Fuck no. Obviously, you can get raped in a church. I was just using it as an example that, given the circumstances, sometimes people need to think more. Just like if a woman harasses her husband for years on end and then he slaps her, she deserves it. It's not right to hit anyone, but sometimes the situation calls for action and not words. Sometimes being PC can get in the way of logical judgment of a situation.

And assaulting people results in jail time. Your point?