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Taxation is Coercion

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Is taxation theft?

No, I believe there should be a system of taxation.
291
66%
No, But I do not believe their should be a system of taxation.
11
2%
Yes, I do not believe there should be a system of taxation.
47
11%
Yes, But I believe taxation is a necessary evil.
75
17%
Other
18
4%
 
Total votes : 442

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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:16 pm

Bendira wrote:Here is the fundamental problem with this argument. Typically when presented with a problem, a choice is defined as a logical route to take in solving your problem. So lets take, for example, a man who wanted to travel from his house to a diner. He considers his options, and logically he comes up with 3 choices. He can either walk, ride his bike or drive (for the sake of keeping it simple, I will leave out the other obvious choices such as taxi or bus). So when you think of a choice, you would think of 3 logical choices right? Well technically, he has the choice to kill himself and not have to worry about the diner at all. But nobody rational would actually entertain such a rediculous choice. Many would barely consider it a choice at all, since it solves the problem in such an "inefficient" way. So your argument that we should GTFO is the metaphorical suicide choice, where it is just plain rediculous.


But that's not what we're saying. We're saying the man has the opinion between walking, riding his bike, or driving. Walking is a more difficult choice, because it requires the most work, but it's still a choice.

You're assuming that we we say, if you don't want to be taxed, leave, that we're suggesting something absurd like to kill yourself-- which isn't what we're saying at all, we're suggesting you walk.
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:18 pm

Sibirsky wrote:No. I have provided several arguments of how it is theft. Saying it's legal, because the government says it's legal is absurd at best.


At no point did I ever say "it's legal, therefore it's legal."

All your arguments for how taxes are theft are, frankly, crap, and I and others have shown that.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:20 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:Here is the fundamental problem with this argument. Typically when presented with a problem, a choice is defined as a logical route to take in solving your problem. So lets take, for example, a man who wanted to travel from his house to a diner. He considers his options, and logically he comes up with 3 choices. He can either walk, ride his bike or drive (for the sake of keeping it simple, I will leave out the other obvious choices such as taxi or bus). So when you think of a choice, you would think of 3 logical choices right? Well technically, he has the choice to kill himself and not have to worry about the diner at all. But nobody rational would actually entertain such a rediculous choice. Many would barely consider it a choice at all, since it solves the problem in such an "inefficient" way. So your argument that we should GTFO is the metaphorical suicide choice, where it is just plain rediculous.


But that's not what we're saying. We're saying the man has the opinion between walking, riding his bike, or driving. Walking is a more difficult choice, because it requires the most work, but it's still a choice.

You're assuming that we we say, if you don't want to be taxed, leave, that we're suggesting something absurd like to kill yourself-- which isn't what we're saying at all, we're suggesting you walk.


No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.
Last edited by Bendira on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:22 pm

Xomic wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:No. I have provided several arguments of how it is theft. Saying it's legal, because the government says it's legal is absurd at best.


At no point did I ever say "it's legal, therefore it's legal."

All your arguments for how taxes are theft are, frankly, crap, and I and others have shown that.


Your solution is that I should move to an uninhabbited island alone. And you somehow think thats a rational choice. So id say you still have a long way to go in proving your point.
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:23 pm

Xomic wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:No. I have provided several arguments of how it is theft. Saying it's legal, because the government says it's legal is absurd at best.


At no point did I ever say "it's legal, therefore it's legal."

All your arguments for how taxes are theft are, frankly, crap, and I and others have shown that.

Just because you fail to see logic, doesn't mean my arguments are crap.
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DaWoad
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Postby DaWoad » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:23 pm

DaWoad wrote:okay lets examine why it's such a poor choice shall we? Essentially it comes down to the idea that without taxes countries tend to be miserable right? So instead of leaving you want to make your country like those countries?
huh???
More importantly, just because your other option is crappy doesn't make something theft. The option of giving up my childhood home in order to not pay off the mortgage is a terrible one for pretty much the same reasons I wouldn't leave Canada (anywhere else I could go to pay less will be worse, there's sentimental value etc. etc. etc.) but that doesn't make that mortgage theft. Ditto car payments/any payments ever.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 pm

DaWoad wrote:
DaWoad wrote:okay lets examine why it's such a poor choice shall we? Essentially it comes down to the idea that without taxes countries tend to be miserable right? So instead of leaving you want to make your country like those countries?
huh???
More importantly, just because your other option is crappy doesn't make something theft. The option of giving up my childhood home in order to not pay off the mortgage is a terrible one for pretty much the same reasons I wouldn't leave Canada (anywhere else I could go to pay less will be worse, there's sentimental value etc. etc. etc.) but that doesn't make that mortgage theft. Ditto car payments/any payments ever.


First of all, I would like you to prove that "countries without taxes tend to be miserable" somehow relates to this topic. Second of all, killing yourself in order to not have to worry about getting to the diner is such a stupid option, that it isn't even an option anymore, because it solves the problem in a really stupid way. Exiling myself to a desert island is basically condemning myself to a miserable lonely death. So that just adds to the coersion.
Last edited by Bendira on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 pm

Would you at least admit that the personal income tax is worse than other taxes?

If you want income, you have to pay the income tax. Sin taxes can be avoided. The sales tax can be avoided by buying used. You can grow your own food. And so on. Most other taxes can be reduced or avoided.

Removing the personal income tax from the Federal government's revenue, gets us to the bloody, chaotic, anarchist, year of 1992 in terms of revenue.
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:30 pm

Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:31 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).


But the choice in itself is coersive, which further solidifies my point. I am coerced into paying taxes, because if I don't I will be imprisoned and violently removed from my property. If I try to leave, I will have to live in isolation by myself forever.
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:34 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).

You have to pay taxes to leave.
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:35 pm

Sibirsky wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).

You have to pay taxes to leave.


Then hop the border like an illegal immigrant, in reverse.
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:37 pm

Bendira wrote:. If I try to leave, I will have to live in isolation by myself forever.


Because all other countries consist of no people. :palm:
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:38 pm

Xomic wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).

You have to pay taxes to leave.


Then hop the border like an illegal immigrant, in reverse.

This is your logical argument? :palm:
It would prevent you from banking. Do you know how anything works?
Last edited by Sibirsky on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:38 pm

Xomic wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).

You have to pay taxes to leave.


Then hop the border like an illegal immigrant, in reverse.


So my choice to living in tyranny is to hop the border, evade authorities until I can stow away on a ship. Then jump off when passing by a deserted island, swim ashore and die from lack of food or clean water.

Can you finally admit taxation is coersive?
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:40 pm

Sibirsky wrote:This is your logical argument? :palm:
It would prevent you from banking. Do you know how anything works?


Then pay the exit tax and leave for these magical desert islands with these banks and thousands of dead libertarians.
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:41 pm

Sibirsky wrote:Would you at least admit that the personal income tax is worse than other taxes?

If you want income, you have to pay the income tax. Sin taxes can be avoided. The sales tax can be avoided by buying used. You can grow your own food. And so on. Most other taxes can be reduced or avoided.

Removing the personal income tax from the Federal government's revenue, gets us to the bloody, chaotic, anarchist, year of 1992 in terms of revenue.

1995 adjusted for inflation.
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:42 pm

Xomic wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:This is your logical argument? :palm:
It would prevent you from banking. Do you know how anything works?


Then pay the exit tax and leave for these magical desert islands with these banks and thousands of dead libertarians.

What banks? Do you think before you speak?

You want to avoid taxes? Pay the tax! :palm:
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:43 pm

Bendira wrote:So my choice to living in tyranny is to hop the border, evade authorities until I can stow away on a ship. Then jump off when passing by a deserted island, swim ashore and die from lack of food or clean water.

Can you finally admit taxation is coersive?


Can you stop using a deserted island as a country of choice for migration? You're whole premise is that the world outside the US is a deserted waste land. It's not. there's all kinds of people out there, different colors and cultures and everything.

I know, it sounds like science fiction, or fantasy "Others? Outside the US? Impossible!!!" But I assure you that there is a non-deserted world out there.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:45 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:So my choice to living in tyranny is to hop the border, evade authorities until I can stow away on a ship. Then jump off when passing by a deserted island, swim ashore and die from lack of food or clean water.

Can you finally admit taxation is coersive?


Can you stop using a deserted island as a country of choice for migration? You're whole premise is that the world outside the US is a deserted waste land. It's not. there's all kinds of people out there, different colors and cultures and everything.

I know, it sounds like science fiction, or fantasy "Others? Outside the US? Impossible!!!" But I assure you that there is a non-deserted world out there.


Name a place other than a deserted island that wouldn't tax me?
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Ellyandia
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Postby Ellyandia » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:52 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).


So you're really saying he has no choice.

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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:53 pm

Bendira wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:So my choice to living in tyranny is to hop the border, evade authorities until I can stow away on a ship. Then jump off when passing by a deserted island, swim ashore and die from lack of food or clean water.

Can you finally admit taxation is coersive?


Can you stop using a deserted island as a country of choice for migration? You're whole premise is that the world outside the US is a deserted waste land. It's not. there's all kinds of people out there, different colors and cultures and everything.

I know, it sounds like science fiction, or fantasy "Others? Outside the US? Impossible!!!" But I assure you that there is a non-deserted world out there.


Name a place other than a deserted island that wouldn't tax me?


Somalia (haha)

But seriously, there's all kinds of countries around the world that are tax havens in some sense.
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Sibirsky
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Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:54 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:So my choice to living in tyranny is to hop the border, evade authorities until I can stow away on a ship. Then jump off when passing by a deserted island, swim ashore and die from lack of food or clean water.

Can you finally admit taxation is coersive?


Can you stop using a deserted island as a country of choice for migration? You're whole premise is that the world outside the US is a deserted waste land. It's not. there's all kinds of people out there, different colors and cultures and everything.

I know, it sounds like science fiction, or fantasy "Others? Outside the US? Impossible!!!" But I assure you that there is a non-deserted world out there.


Name a place other than a deserted island that wouldn't tax me?


Somalia (haha)

But seriously, there's all kinds of countries around the world that are tax havens in some sense.


Name one. And tell us how to leave without having to pay the exit tax.
Last edited by Sibirsky on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:54 pm

Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:So my choice to living in tyranny is to hop the border, evade authorities until I can stow away on a ship. Then jump off when passing by a deserted island, swim ashore and die from lack of food or clean water.

Can you finally admit taxation is coersive?


Can you stop using a deserted island as a country of choice for migration? You're whole premise is that the world outside the US is a deserted waste land. It's not. there's all kinds of people out there, different colors and cultures and everything.

I know, it sounds like science fiction, or fantasy "Others? Outside the US? Impossible!!!" But I assure you that there is a non-deserted world out there.


Name a place other than a deserted island that wouldn't tax me?


Somalia (haha)

But seriously, there's all kinds of countries around the world that are tax havens in some sense.


Tax haven's dont mean im not taxed. Just means im taxed less. So basically can you admit that taxation is coersive?
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Xomic
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Postby Xomic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:56 pm

Ellyandia wrote:
Xomic wrote:
Bendira wrote:No, it is the metaphorical suicide choice to leave. Because there is no where I could go where I wouldn't be taxed. The only option would be to go to an uninhabbited place where I would most likely die from malaria within 3 days. So the options are go be alone on an uninhabbited island, move to someplace where it is exactly the same, or stay here and try to change things. Your GTFO argument is extremely ridiculous.


I'm not saying, GTFO, I'm saying you have a choice to stay and pay taxes, or to leave this country and live elsewhere, such as another country (which do exist).


So you're really saying he has no choice.


Yes I am.

He has a choice of buying the product (living in the United States) or not buying the product.

Of course, if you're saying he doesn't have a choice to live in the United States and not pay the taxes, than that's true, but than they'd be stealing.
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