Taxation is Coercion

[Songnam]

Okay, where else is the government going to get funding. Technically, we pay the landlord rent. The Landlord is the government. We are the tenants. They take care of legal crap. They deal with other nations. This may sound a bit eaglelandish, but thats my pov.

[The blessed Chris]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

Theft is illegal. Taxation is legal. Learn the difference, it could save your life.

Taxation is not universally legal.

It's legal within all nations Generalites hail from, as far as I'm aware, and that's all that matters.

Taxation is not a monolithic. Certain taxes can be illegal.

[Dododecapod]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

Theft is illegal. Taxation is legal. Learn the difference, it could save your life.

Its not legal under natural law. And just because it is legal does not mean its not theft.

Cite the "natural law" that makes it illegal.

You shall not violently aggress against others?

And that comes from what?

The history of human's rejection of violence?

So completely imaginary then?

I dont think you have ever brought anything intelligent to a topic I have ever made.

Well, he has now, because frankly your conjecture is worthless.

But the only way violence has ever been accepted by society is when it is far removed from people, or people have been psychologically conditioned to kill. Give a random person a hatchet and ask them to kill somebody for the betterment of society, and im willing to bet most wouldn't do it.

Ah. Please stick to economics. Leave history to those who know what they're talking about. Because, to be perfectly honest, that's the most naiively dumb thing I've ever heard.

[Sibirsky]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

It is not theft because ultimately you do have the power to evade or refuse to pay it, either legally (through lack of income, having income only from non-taxed sources or leaving the country) or illegally, through simply not paying. A thief takes your money; governments require you to give it up willingly.

Whether or not tax is extortion is another question altogether.

Willingly? The government threatens you with jail time. That's force.

As far as leaving the country, you have to renounce your citizenship, never come to visit again, pay an exit tax, and continue paying taxes on your income and investments for 10 years following your leave. Despite these outrageous costs, more than 700 Americans renounced their citizenship in 2009. Up from 235 in 2008.

[Ceiling Cats]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

More than theft really. More like extortion. "Give us your money and we will protect you and look after your interests whether you like it or not --- or else!"

[Genivar]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

Theft is illegal. Taxation is legal. Learn the difference, it could save your life.

Its not legal under natural law. And just because it is legal does not mean its not theft.

Cite the "natural law" that makes it illegal.

You shall not violently aggress against others?

And that comes from what?

The history of human's rejection of violence? Unless of course they are brainwashed to think otherwise.

And how are fines and imprisonment for violating well established law violent?

It's certainly better then the king sending his men to kill you and burn your house down.

[Rick Rollin]

The Police are funded by tax money, m'kay?

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

We had this discussion about a month ago.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=58764&hilit=Taxation+is+theft

That about the interval between abortion debates on NSG.

[Buffett and Colbert]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

Theft is illegal. Taxation is legal. Learn the difference, it could save your life.

Taxation is not universally legal.

It's legal within all nations Generalites hail from, as far as I'm aware, and that's all that matters.

Taxation is not a monolithic. Certain taxes can be illegal.

And what have you accomplished with this nitpick?

[Norstal]

The Police are funded by tax money, m'kay?

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

We had this discussion about a month ago.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=58764&hilit=Taxation+is+theft

That about the interval between abortion debates on NSG.

Good point. Why do we even have a "Search" function in this forum.

[Buffett and Colbert]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

Theft is illegal. Taxation is legal. Learn the difference, it could save your life.

Its not legal under natural law. And just because it is legal does not mean its not theft.

Cite the "natural law" that makes it illegal.

You shall not violently aggress against others?

And that comes from what?

The history of human's rejection of violence? Unless of course they are brainwashed to think otherwise.

And how are fines and imprisonment for violating well established law violent?

It's certainly better then the king sending his men to kill you and burn your house down.

I should say so, not that a king would preoccupy himself with tax evaders...

[Sibirsky]

Okay, where else is the government going to get funding. Technically, we pay the landlord rent. The Landlord is the government. We are the tenants. They take care of legal crap. They deal with other nations. This may sound a bit eaglelandish, but thats my pov.

User fees?

[Hassett]

In a real free market society, taxation (and the state in general) won't be needed because the free-market fairy will take care of everything. Let the natural laws of economics run their course.

Call it what you want, it works.

[Picklepoo]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

It really depends how you think about it, but basically, your paying to live inside the country. Therefore, metaphorically, its theft.

[Dododecapod]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

It is not theft because ultimately you do have the power to evade or refuse to pay it, either legally (through lack of income, having income only from non-taxed sources or leaving the country) or illegally, through simply not paying. A thief takes your money; governments require you to give it up willingly.

Whether or not tax is extortion is another question altogether.

Willingly? The government threatens you with jail time. That's force.

No, that is the threat of force. Which is A) usually more effective and B) by no means the same thing as force itself.

As far as leaving the country, you have to renounce your citizenship, never come to visit again, pay an exit tax, and continue paying taxes on your income and investments for 10 years following your leave. Despite these outrageous costs, more than 700 Americans renounced their citizenship in 2009. Up from 235 in 2008.

You're assuming A) that the US system is universal (in fact, it's UNIQUE) and B) that the US actually enforces it. Which by and large it doesn't, save in certain high-prestige cases.

[Bendira]

But the only way violence has ever been accepted by society is when it is far removed from people, or people have been psychologically conditioned to kill. Give a random person a hatchet and ask them to kill somebody for the betterment of society, and im willing to bet most wouldn't do it.

Really?

So if I walked up to you, handed you a hatchet, and told you to kill somebody because it would benefit society, you would do it?

Thats an experiment conducted by psychologists.

Natural law is something that can be found in nearly every religion and society. Clearly the entire human history of religous and societal advocacy of non-violence overshadows one experiment conducted at Yale University.The only reason violence continues in our society (such as taxation) is because the violence is not obvious, and we are conditioned from birth to believe certain acts of violence to be morally acceptable. But ask somebody to kill somebody themselves, and they will have a very hard time.

I briefly skimmed the article on the experiment, but I saw no mention of the person being able to watch the person they are shocking die. If that is the case, it actually proves my point, which is that the only way violence is propagated is when you are removed from it, or coerced by an authority figure.

[Auremena]

There should not be money, so taxation is useless.

[DaWoad]

In a real free market society, taxation (and the state in general) won't be needed because the free-market fairy will take care of everything. Let the natural laws of economics run their course.

Call it what you want, it works.

does it? So show me an example then, historically if you will of a Utopian society with no need for government brought about by the freeing of the market

[Rick Rollin]

So yes, anybody that has opened this is already steaming. But I want to ask a simple question here. How is taxation not theft? You are forced to pay, and if you refuse you are imprisoned. I can understand if you think taxation is a necessary evil, but denying that it is theft outright seems completely rediculous to me.

Theft is illegal. Taxation is legal. Learn the difference, it could save your life.

Its not legal under natural law. And just because it is legal does not mean its not theft.

Cite the "natural law" that makes it illegal.

You shall not violently aggress against others?

And that comes from what?

The history of human's rejection of violence?

So completely imaginary then?

I dont think you have ever brought anything intelligent to a topic I have ever made.

But the only way violence has ever been accepted by society is when it is far removed from people, or people have been psychologically conditioned to kill. Give a random person a hatchet and ask them to kill somebody for the betterment of society, and im willing to bet most wouldn't do it.

I would as long as I had the government's permission. Otherwise, No.

[JJ Place]

Any reasonable and responsive person who really sits down and thinks about it will tell you that Taxation is nothing more than Theft. I'll debate with anyone who says that taxation is a necessary evil or good theft; but saying taxation isn't theft is one of the silliest things anyone can say; just because an organization tells you that them taking money from you isn't theft because they have more rights than any other organization is one of the lamest arguments a person can utilize in a debate; saying that the government can do what it likes because it writes it's own law is intellectually dishonest, and flies in the face of all reality.

[NERVUN]

But the only way violence has ever been accepted by society is when it is far removed from people, or people have been psychologically conditioned to kill. Give a random person a hatchet and ask them to kill somebody for the betterment of society, and im willing to bet most wouldn't do it.

Really?

So if I walked up to you, handed you a hatchet, and told you to kill somebody because it would benefit society, you would do it?

Thats an experiment conducted by psychologists.

Natural law is something that can be found in nearly every religion and society. Clearly the entire human history of religous and societal advocacy of non-violence overshadows one experiment conducted at Yale University.The only reason violence continues in our society (such as taxation) is because the violence is not obvious, and we are conditioned from birth to believe certain acts of violence to be morally acceptable. But ask somebody to kill somebody themselves, and they will have a very hard time.

I briefly skimmed the article on the experiment, but I saw no mention of the person being able to watch the person they are shocking die. If that is the case, it actually proves my point, which is that the only way violence is propagated is when you are removed from it, or coerced by an authority figure.

That has to be one of the worst rebuttles I have read in my time here on NSG. And that's saying something.

Why don't you take the time to actually READ the article and what was drawn from it instead of waving your hand and trying to dismiss it?

[Norstal]

But the only way violence has ever been accepted by society is when it is far removed from people, or people have been psychologically conditioned to kill. Give a random person a hatchet and ask them to kill somebody for the betterment of society, and im willing to bet most wouldn't do it.

Really?

So if I walked up to you, handed you a hatchet, and told you to kill somebody because it would benefit society, you would do it?

Thats an experiment conducted by psychologists.

Natural law is something that can be found in nearly every religion and society. Clearly the entire human history of religous and societal advocacy of non-violence overshadows one experiment conducted at Yale University.The only reason violence continues in our society (such as taxation) is because the violence is not obvious, and we are conditioned from birth to believe certain acts of violence to be morally acceptable. But ask somebody to kill somebody themselves, and they will have a very hard time.

I briefly skimmed the article on the experiment, but I saw no mention of the person being able to watch the person they are shocking die. If that is the case, it actually proves my point, which is that the only way violence is propagated is when you are removed from it, or coerced by an authority figure.

Uh, no he wouldn't because that's against the (civil) law. If there are no law and there's nothing that prevents him from doing such thing, of course he would do that.

[Jervak]

Getting profit off of workers is theft.

[Rick Rollin]

There should not be money, so taxation is useless.

How will we pay for goods and services?

[NERVUN]

As far as leaving the country, you have to renounce your citizenship, never come to visit again, pay an exit tax, and continue paying taxes on your income and investments for 10 years following your leave. Despite these outrageous costs, more than 700 Americans renounced their citizenship in 2009. Up from 235 in 2008.

Really? That's news to a number of former Americans then. And given around 4 million Americans or thereabouts live abroad... I think I will sleep soundly with 700.

[Picklepoo]

There should not be money, so taxation is useless.

How will we pay for goods and services?

Trade?